Ice-T vs. Soulja Boy

[Andrew_TSKS]

Oh damn, I have that Ministry Side Trax disc, but I got it for Pailhead and 1000 Homo DJs. I had no idea there was a Skinny Puppy connection.

[Nick Ink]

I have to add my name to the list of those who do not enjoy hip-hop, despite occasional forays into the likes of cLOUDDEAD.

Then again, I also do not like rock, punk, jazz. soul, metal, most country, a lot of folk, nor post-1950s blues.

[Andrew_TSKS]

so nick, robyn hitchcock and the throwing muses... not rock?

[Nick Ink]

I was half-joking.

[elpollodiablo]

Hopefully about the first part, too

[Nick Ink]

Hopefully about the first part, too

I do sometimes get a sort of visceral thrill from the sound of the drum programming, but other than that I'm afraid it doesn't do anything for me really. There have been times when I've dabbled - I spent a while enjoying J.Dilla's Donuts, Cannibal Ox's The Cold Vein, a few of Madvillain's records, but it was a short-lived interest.

[shai faithe]

just thought i'd link this blog post concerning the ice-t/soulja boy "beef."  really interesting that the author relates ice-t's music pre-"power" to soulja boy's music now, saying, essentially, that ice-t then is soulja boy now, which i think is at least somewhat correct.  i still wouldn't come down on soulja boy's side though, no matter how funny he is.  it's obvious that the kid is a clown, and the modern minstrel shit has been discussed on here a million times so there's no need to rehash it.  it's interesting to me still that ice-t was the one to call him out publicly, considering ice-t's past.  anyway, i wanted to add a beat down before this horse is totally dead.

[diesel_powered]

Oh damn, I have that Ministry Side Trax disc, but I got it for Pailhead and 1000 Homo DJs. I had no idea there was a Skinny Puppy connection.

Jourgenson's done stuff with everybody. The Britney Spears collab will be out in a month.

[shai faithe]

see "heaven on earth"

[Antero]

just thought i'd link this blog post concerning the ice-t/soulja boy "beef."  really interesting that the author relates ice-t's music pre-"power" to soulja boy's music now, saying, essentially, that ice-t then is soulja boy now, which demands logic-twisting equivocation, false relativism, and a very short memory.

FYP.  Is he fucking kidding?  The socio-political environment surrounding Ice-T's commercial success is fundamentally immaterial, because he still dropped "6 In The Mornin'".  Schooly D, Ice-T, and BDP fathered gangsta rap.  Can we argue that he was commercially successful in a hip fashion?  Sure.  Did he rap about dancing and DJs sometimes?  Yeah, sure, that's a universal hip-hop theme and always has been.  The writer, however, claims that Ice-T got gangsta as a response to changing markets, which is false.  Ice-T's own accounts describe him being inspired by hearing Schoolly D and upping the ante in terms of description of events and general grit.

Meanwhile Soulja Boy has one song.  This song will not be listened to in 15 years.  How do I know?  Well, tell me the last time you heard the "Macarena" in a club, not to mention all the novelty dances of the 60s.  When a bunch of current 12-14s hit middle-age it might see a brief nostalgironic resurgence, but not much of one because it's a bit tricky to superman dat hoe once you have a bad back and your hips are ehhh.

The blog post cited is infected with a sort of thoughtless relativism that is ultimately hypocritical and holds the claim of the pop charts above the actual content and context of the music being discussed.  He equates Ice-T's  music - massively influential, game changing, and damn good - to Soulja Boy's through the narrow, and ultimately false, claim of relevance and the demise of rapping.

Soulja is a product of a new, semi-disposable hip-hop aesthetic where cross-over appeal is not only desired but encouraged, and the art in the song is only as valuable as its hook and chart position. No one cares about skills anymore

So what his ultimate point is is that Ice-T may be right on all counts, but because Ice-T was also successful and because the current state of the industry and charts matters more than any actual analysis of a record's content or sociopolitical context, there is no difference.

That's straight bullshit.

---

On top of which, the song I've heard booming from the most car radios this summer is a hookless and skillful freestyle over a beat that contains no melodic elements, from a rapper whose claim to fame is verbal ability.

[Andrew_TSKS]

I'm so glad you responded to that rather than me, because I agree with you on all counts and yet could not have summed it up anywhere near that well.

One thing, though: FYP? I just think "Five Year Plan" when I see that.

[Babar]

yup, antero ftw.

but i do hate when people say that rap songs that are happy or danceable are disposal or not real music or whatever. hip hop started out as party music y'know. i don't like crank dat because i think it sucks, but i like get low by lil jon and that's just as danceable and stupid as crank dat.

[jebreject]

One thing, though: FYP? I just think "Five Year Plan" when I see that.

"Fixed Your Post," I believe

[diesel_powered]

yup, antero ftw.

but i do hate when people say that rap songs that are happy or danceable are disposal or not real music or whatever. hip hop started out as party music y'know. i don't like crank dat because i think it sucks, but i like get low by lil jon and that's just as danceable and stupid as crank dat.

Yeah, like De La Soul. And Soulja Boy is no De La Soul.

[Andrew_TSKS]

One thing, though: FYP? I just think "Five Year Plan" when I see that.

"Fixed Your Post," I believe

glad you said something. before that i hadn't even noticed that antero changed the wording in shai's quote.

nothing personal towards anybody, but i kind of hate it when people do that.

[graham]

Also, years before gangsta Ice-T, the man wrote the lyrics to this gem:


I highly recommend checking this out.  And if any RVA people want to watch it, it was the best two dollars I ever spent (that I am enthusiastic to share).

[Antero]

but i do hate when people say that rap songs that are happy or danceable are disposal or not real music or whatever. hip hop started out as party music y'know.

100% truth.

Honestly, I fucking love hyphy.

Love.

Keak Da Sneak, Dem Hoodstarz, E-40, The Federation, and The Team!

Most of all The Team.  My god I'll rep "World Premiere" to death.

[shai faithe]

not a big fan of the quote changing bit myself.  i didn't remember writing that and felt that it would have contradicted what i said.  after which i realized what had happened.
anyway, i didn't really think that the post would ignite such fervor in you, antero.  you must really be on some early ice-t.  and i didn't mean to say that i agreed with that writer, just that his post was one of the more interesting things i had come across with regard to the beef.  mainly, i would never come close to siding with soulja boy, no matter how much funnier his video was than ice-t's.
that doesn't mean that i don't snicker (is there a better word for a little laugh, giggle isn't right either) a bit when i hear how ice-t is coming at soulja boy.  it's like he's forgotten about the breakin movies.  should we forgive an artist for their sins (that's melodramatic, sorry) when they become much greater artists down the line?  absolutely.  but why call out a kid (soulja boy) who's not only younger (and stupider) than ice was in breakin', but also, arguably, trying to get famous in the same way that ice did in those movies?  anyone over 16 (18?) knows that soulja boy is garbage, why have ice-t tell us, especially when it only exposes his early career corniness?  ice may have been right when he told soulja boy that his own career was solid and that soulja boy fucked up, but the whole beef has done nothing but made ice-t look like a grumpy old rapper.  the kids that already liked soulja boy - who didn't even know who ice-t was - now probably hate ice-t, and have rallied around soulja boy.  the fans that already liked ice-t were already either despising or ignoring soulja boy.  did this make anyone hate soulja boy more? no, he's a kid and a chump, so what.  does anyone hate ice-t more now?  yeah, soulja boy fans.  so that's: soulja boy 0 ice-t -1.
i think that you know more than me about golden age hip hop than me, but i think that in '88, primarily because of "nation of millions," there was a sea change of hip hop artists moving from doing dance and feel good work to more politically minded work. of course, that same summer was "straight outta compton" and the artists that didn't go strictly political, went towards gangsta politics (for lack of a better term).  i think it's bullshit for the author of that post to say that gangsta rap was a commercial maneuver.  i think it would would have been a far more astute observation to say that, before 88, artists who had left gangsta and political themes at the fringe because of the climate of the industry, after 88, were allowed to make those themes central.  ice-t is/was one of those artists, as you noted with "6 in the mornin."  what if such a shift were to happen again, soulja boy woke the fuck up, and started making politically informed material - not out of calculation, but because he truly believed that he should've been doing that all along?  would the comparisons then be more apt?  i think so.  the argument put forth in that blog post needs a whole lot of nuance before it can come close to being true, but i feel that the skeleton is alright - that is, ice-t was once guilty of the same shit that soulja boy is pulling now and because of that, he should've a) kept quiet and not given soulja boy the free publicity or b) said, "hey kid, i was once like you. you should wise up and make better music."  that second tactic would have been far more successful in winning over soulja boy's young (but massive) fan base to a much better sort of hip hop.  what ice-t has done is further alienated them.
that was bloated, i'm sorry.  i wanted to make clear the parts of that argument that i supported and the ones that i didn't.

[Andrew_TSKS]

i still think comparing ice t's appearances in breakin to crank dat is fucking ridiculous and a totally bullshit comparison, and i further continue to think that this comparison being bullshit nullifies your entire point, but i guess we can agree to disagree on that.

furthermore, if you're an honest-to-god soulja boy fan, you don't like hip hop anyway. you like top 40 dance music. so whatever.

[Antero]

it's like he's forgotten about the breakin movies. should we forgive an artist for their sins (that's melodramatic, sorry) when they become much greater artists down the line?  absolutely.  but why call out a kid (soulja boy) who's not only younger (and stupider) than ice was in breakin', but also, arguably, trying to get famous in the same way that ice did in those movies?

While generally horrible movies, "Breakin'" and their ilk did do a great deal to push the form into the popular consciousness, and incorporated actual street b-boys and actual MCs.

Beyond anything else, however, breakdancing - or even proper club music, for that matter - cannot be honestly compared to Soulja Boy.  We're talking a highly-developed and athletic mode of creative personal expression against a novelty dance with the steps all plotted out for you - you may as well compare being a guitar hero to playing it.

i think that you know more than me about golden age hip hop than me, but i think that in '88, primarily because of "nation of millions," there was a sea change of hip hop artists moving from doing dance and feel good work to more politically minded work. of course, that same summer was "straight outta compton" and the artists that didn't go strictly political, went towards gangsta politics (for lack of a better term).

"Straight Outta Compton" is one of the most forcefully, bitingly, terrifyingly political records ever released.  Gangsta rap was conscious rap, and the distinction between the two is a false dichotomy drawn by preachy motherfuckers who were afraid to offend people.

[qupte]i think it would would have been a far more astute observation to say that, before 88, artists who had left gangsta and political themes at the fringe because of the climate of the industry, after 88, were allowed to make those themes central.  ice-t is/was one of those artists, as you noted with "6 in the mornin."[/quote]Ice-T dropped "6 in the Mornin" in 1986.

that second tactic would have been far more successful in winning over soulja boy's young (but massive) fan base to a much better sort of hip hop.  what ice-t has done is further alienated them.

He doesn't give a shit about Soulja Boy's fanbase, all things considered, but I'd say this has actually done him good.  He hasn't been in the spotlight as a rapper for years, and the discussion around this is going to send people scrambling to listen to his back catalogue.

[Antero]

anyway, i didn't really think that the post would ignite such fervor in you, antero.  you must really be on some early ice-t.

I'm on some hip-hop is what I am.

And some historical accuracy.

it's like he's forgotten about the breakin movies. should we forgive an artist for their sins (that's melodramatic, sorry) when they become much greater artists down the line?  absolutely.  but why call out a kid (soulja boy) who's not only younger (and stupider) than ice was in breakin', but also, arguably, trying to get famous in the same way that ice did in those movies?

While generally horrible movies, "Breakin'" and their ilk did do a great deal to push the form into the popular consciousness, and incorporated actual street b-boys and actual MCs.

Beyond anything else, however, breakdancing - or even proper club music, for that matter - cannot be honestly compared to Soulja Boy.  We're talking a highly-developed and athletic mode of creative personal expression against a novelty dance with the steps all plotted out for you - you may as well compare being a guitar hero to playing it.

i think that you know more than me about golden age hip hop than me, but i think that in '88, primarily because of "nation of millions," there was a sea change of hip hop artists moving from doing dance and feel good work to more politically minded work. of course, that same summer was "straight outta compton" and the artists that didn't go strictly political, went towards gangsta politics (for lack of a better term).

"Straight Outta Compton" is one of the most forcefully, bitingly, terrifyingly political records ever released.  Gangsta rap was conscious rap, and the distinction between the two is a false dichotomy drawn by preachy motherfuckers who were afraid to offend people.

[qupte]i think it would would have been a far more astute observation to say that, before 88, artists who had left gangsta and political themes at the fringe because of the climate of the industry, after 88, were allowed to make those themes central.  ice-t is/was one of those artists, as you noted with "6 in the mornin."

Ice-T dropped "6 in the Mornin" in 1986.

that second tactic would have been far more successful in winning over soulja boy's young (but massive) fan base to a much better sort of hip hop.  what ice-t has done is further alienated them.

He doesn't give a shit about Soulja Boy's fanbase, all things considered, but I'd say this has actually done him good.  He hasn't been in the spotlight as a rapper for years, and the discussion around this is going to send people scrambling to listen to his back catalogue.
[/quote]

[shai faithe]

1 i know that it was released in 86 that's why i said that ice-t was an artist that moved politics from the fringe to the center of his message in the wake of 88.
2 i would still compare the aesthetic of breakin to that of soulja boy, by which i mean something akin to camp.  i feel that historical hindsight with soulja boy will show this to be the case.  how else do you explain spelling "soulja boy" in white out on some sunglasses, and lines like "crank dat robocop?"  i not once spoke about break dancing as a form of creative expression.  i'm talking about popularization and exploitation.  "breakin" was not about break dancing.  that's why it's a joke.  soulja boy is not about dancing.  that's why he's a joke.  ice-t making a song called "war" for a scene in breakin 2 where two gangs break dance fight with trash can lids as shields?  that's a joke too.
3 the straight outta compton business i'm going to disagree with.  not a lot, just a little.  i will grant you the overt politics of that record - that's why i already did in my last post - but to say that it's one of the "most forcefully, bitingly, terrifyingly political records ever released?"  nah.  ice cube is definitely one of the most forceful, biting, terrifying political emcees around.  and his part of the album is just that.  eazy's is about bitches, ren's is about not a whole lot (kidding, ren), and dre's is a mix of eazy's and cube's (obviously because it was written by cube).  this is why cube's next three albums put the fucking fear of god in white people all over the country.  and what happened with "niggaz4life?"  it was like...proto horrorcore.  all killing, fucking, whatnot.  don't think for a second that i don't absolutely love "straight outta compton."  it's one of my favorite records.  but i wouldn't put it in the same political arena as "nations," even with a songs like "black steel" and "fuck the police" blurring the line between the two.  this also isn't to say that there is a definitive line between them.  hell, i don't think that there's a definitive line between anything, but there are certainly distinctions.  i would never separate gangsta rap from the politically minded rap of that era.  how can you when there are records like "by all means necessary?"  i'm speaking about shades of grey, and i think that saying "Gangsta rap was conscious rap, and the distinction between the two is a false dichotomy drawn by preachy motherfuckers who were afraid to offend people" (nevermind the "preachy..." part) is reductionist.
4 on second thought about the soulja boy 0 ice-t -1 thing is that you're probably right, in that people are going back and revisiting ice-t.  are those people listeners who already were into ice-t?  i think that's probable.  for me, that's a bit of a problem.  ice-t may have brought back people whose attention he hadn't had for fifteen years, but he may have lost a pretty big age group of kids that, lord willing, would start to get into that kind of hip hop.  and here is where i would say that it's presumptive to think that ice-t doesn't care about soulja boy's fan base.  i think that an undercurrent of his "apology" to soulja boy was something along the lines of, "young people, stop listening to garbage.  there is much better hip hop out there to be heard, like me, ice-t."  hence the little bit from his son at the end.  why else pull the age card?  along with this, andrew, comments like yours, "fans of soulja boy don't like hip hop anyway" always make me wary, especially with regard to hip hop, where they seem to be ubiquitous and have for a long long time.  who's to say what is and isn't hip hop?  why did you get to decide what someone listens to isn't hip and what you listen to is hip hop?  if slayer is rock and neil diamond is rock, why can't soulja boy and clouddead both be hip hop?  "hip hop" has, for a while at least, been a very fractured umbrella term, almost as much as "rock," which is why other, more specific terms are usually used to talk about artists as different as the aforementioned.  to say that something isn't "hip hop" just doesn't sit well with me.
5  wasn't trying to get snarky with the "you must really..." comment.  i just really thought you must like ice-t. 

[Andrew_TSKS]

1 i know that it was released in 86 that's why i said that ice-t was an artist that moved politics from the fringe to the center of his message in the wake of 88.

but "6 in the mornin" is a straight up gangsta-rap song, so you'd be wrong about ice-t changing his message by antero's logic that the divide between "gangsta" and "political" rap is an artificial one. see?

2 i would still compare the aesthetic of breakin to that of soulja boy, by which i mean something akin to camp.  i feel that historical hindsight with soulja boy will show this to be the case.  how else do you explain spelling "soulja boy" in white out on some sunglasses, and lines like "crank dat robocop?"  i not once spoke about break dancing as a form of creative expression.  i'm talking about popularization and exploitation.  "breakin" was not about break dancing.  that's why it's a joke.  soulja boy is not about dancing.  that's why he's a joke.  ice-t making a song called "war" for a scene in breakin 2 where two gangs break dance fight with trash can lids as shields?  that's a joke too.

i don't think you'll find that the specifically hip-hop elements of the movie "breakin" are typically regarded as a joke in hip hop culture. sure, the plot of the movie is kind of silly, but the hip-hop elements that are incorporated aren't on the same level as the plot. it's kind of like how the punk-rock cultural elements incorporated into "repo man" are legit no matter what you think of the story the movie is telling.

[shai faithe]

but "6 in the mornin" is a straight up gangsta-rap song, so you'd be wrong about ice-t changing his message by antero's logic that the divide between "gangsta" and "political" rap is an artificial one. see?
...
i don't think you'll find that the specifically hip-hop elements of the movie "breakin" are typically regarded as a joke in hip hop culture. sure, the plot of the movie is kind of silly, but the hip-hop elements that are incorporated aren't on the same level as the plot. it's kind of like how the punk-rock cultural elements incorporated into "repo man" are legit no matter what you think of the story the movie is telling.

for some reason, this first statement confuses me a bit.  i believe you're saying that i''ve contradicted myself in saying that a gangsta rapper was also primarily political?  i never said that gangsta and political raps were mutually exclusive.  in fact, the point that i was trying to communicate, i guess unsuccessfully, was that a lot of rap after 88 took equally from pe and nwa, thus forming a sort of...venn diagram in which the middle area is much greater than the poles.  i took issue with antero's statement that gangsta rap was, what i perceived as, necessarily political and (maybe?) vice versa.  it might be splitting hairs to an inconsequential degree, but there it is.
...
i willing to bet that, since the release of "breakin'" and even upon its release, very few people involved with breakdancing have seen the film in order to immerse themselves in its "specifically hip hop elements."  it has been viewed as a silly, formulaic, almost-farce of the subject matter that it claims to laud.  hence, camp, joke, etc.  plus, i was making specific reference to the mind-blowingly stupid shit in the film, especially those parts associated with ice-t and/or his music.  i'm in the dark about the talk of "levels" of plot versus those of the hip hop elements, you'll have to clarify that.  and i've never seen repo man, but it looks pretty awesome.