Verlaine Verlaine Verlaine Verlaine (etc)

[difficult]

Yes the Verlaines were sometimes unbelievably great.
But if you came from NZ you would be less likely to think they were totally appreciated - there's still a lot of love, often from unexpected quarters here for them.
(Personally I think they never matched the admittedly fairly unassailable peaks of You Say You off 10 O'clock in the Afternoon, the first EP, and that after three albums, they went off in directions I couldn't really relate to, but they have been really dear to my heart for extended periods, and as such not liking some of their later stuff feels very much like a betrayal....

Incidentally, Graeme Downes now teaches a university course on how to make it in the music biz, where bands are formed and attempt to be successful. I could hardly be said to be up with anyone's music scene these days, but the only bands I've come across from it have been indifferent to say the least...

[Andrew_TSKS]

i have "bird dog" but i've listened to half of it, like, once. i realize i should rectify this, but what i'm really asking is... where does it fall on the continuum of verlaines music?

[difficult]

Second album - It's a pretty good one too. The other 2 albums I like are Some Disenchanted Evening and Hallelujah All The Way Home, plus the early singles (on the Juvenalia comp) of which 10 O'Clock is the king. The Death and the Maiden single is really great too - that's the one with the manic repetition of the band name cited above, which I always thought was an exceptionally fun thing for such a seriously earnest band to get away with....
After that the way it works shifted for me - I just started to find Graeme's tendencies towards complicated songwriting and arrangements stopped astonishing me and started to grate. Soon after, they got closer to being a rock band anyway. The later stuff isn't so much bad, as just not amazing any more.

[Andrew_TSKS]

oh shit, i was just talking about superchunk covering bands in another thread, and now i gotta do it again. wasn't "lying in state" originally a verlaines song? i love the superchunk version of that song.

also, were the verlaines connected to the 3ds? i saw them on tour with superchunk in 1994, and i have their album "hellzapoppin". i feel like they had members of the verlaines. could be wrong though.

[difficult]

Yeah, Lying in State was a Verlaines song.

Now I don't think there were any membes in common between Verlaines and 3Ds. Some of the 3Ds came from Auckland and moved down to Dunedin late 80s (apparently guitarist David Mitchell fell in love with the Robbie Burns liquor store - he's the manic hairy one now in Ghost Club), and by that stage Verlaines had been going for a while. There have been a lot of Verlaines members over the years, but by that stage, Graeme's sensibilities had started to diverge from the traditional Dunedin ones - they were scuzzy and cheap, he was organised and musicianly, and so new members tended to come from slightly different places than the points I would place the 3Ds.
However, ironically, the most defiantly unmusicianly band ever to come out of Dunedin (or Port Chalmers to be more specific) were the Dead C, who proudly feature the mighty (and often messy) Robbie Yeats on drums, who's on many of the best Verlaines records.
It's important to know that NZ is traditionally a very small scene, and in particular Dunedin. Especially, there were never many drummers around, so there are a lot of circumstances where otherwise disparate sensibilities would share stages, etc.

[John]

Verlaines purists like to harsh on "Way Out Where" as "too commercial" etc but in truth it's a magnificent ROCK album, and has some of Downes's best songs on it

I am a Verlaines Kool-Aid drinker, I love pretty much everything, though (unlike the majority of Verlaines fans) I tend to think that higher production serves Downes's ear for arrangements better: to me they were really a case of "lo-fi 'cause it's what we can afford and the songs are good," not "lo-fi as governing aesthetic"

[John]

(not that I'm calling the threadstarter here a Verlaines purist! but there are such types)

[difficult]

Verlaines purists like to harsh on "Way Out Where" as "too commercial" etc but in truth it's a magnificent ROCK album, and has some of Downes's best songs on it

I am a Verlaines Kool-Aid drinker, I love pretty much everything, though (unlike the majority of Verlaines fans) I tend to think that higher production serves Downes's ear for arrangements better: to me they were really a case of "lo-fi 'cause it's what we can afford and the songs are good," not "lo-fi as governing aesthetic"

Way Out Where? But its got that horrible sound! The guitars sound like other people's guitars! Graeme Downes used to be a great, full-on, no-pedals, break-a-leg guitarist who didn't need any other guitarist on stage to fill up the room. Then they got another guitarist, and suddenly the paying is slack and dull strumalong territory by comparison.
( I could say the same about David Kilgour and his current band the Heavy 8s - if there was ever a guy who didn't need a 2nd guitarist it's David fucking Kilgour! And now he has one, the free-est flowing guitarist I've ever seen becomes locked into rhythmic dullardsville, and they sound terrible! Can you imagine? David Kilgour sounding terrible? Un fucking believable)
It just seemed that around that time a lot of teh passion and energy of his earlier playing just dissipated. I saw some of the last 3-piece shows, and then a lot of the 4-piece ones, and yeah, they became a rock band. They didn't use to be, you know?
So, yeah, call me a purist if you want. Actually I think I'm a purist about some elements of what they did that Graeme outgrew anyway....

[John]

Way Out Where is full of banging choons and I will defend it to the death!

[difficult]

Right then! Rainbow trout at dawn! I want Wally as my second!

[Wally]

I got ya back Campbell

[David R.]

Way Out Where? But its got that horrible sound! The guitars sound like other people's guitars!

Sound schmound.  If you can't get with "Black Wings" or "This Valentine," then you are not getting w/ me.  Or John, I guess.

[David R.]

I'd say Over The Moon is the one that really separates the diehards from the casuals, but that's mostly because it's the one that tests me the most (and it's like an open book test w/ the teacher's notes, so, y'know, it's peasy).  

FWIW, I first heard the Vs via Superchunk (& No Alternative), "got" them via WOW, and then worked my way backwards towards the stuff that everyone dies for (which I like just fine, esp. Hallelujah, tho I will always be a sucker for the Alt Nation GD).

[Maaik]

I'd say Over The Moon is the one that really separates the diehards from the casuals, but that's mostly because it's the one that tests me the most (and it's like an open book test w/ the teacher's notes, so, y'know, it's peasy).  

FWIW, I first heard the Vs via Superchunk (& No Alternative), "got" them via WOW, and then worked my way backwards towards the stuff that everyone dies for (which I like just fine, esp. Hallelujah, tho I will always be a sucker for the Alt Nation GD).

Yeah, the No Alternative comp was my intro to the Verlaines.  God, how fucking cool is it to work the name of your band into your songs?

[David R.]

Damn it, now I'm totally in the need for a Flying Nun fix.  You bastardos.   8)

[hannah]

Damn it, now I'm totally in the need for a Flying Nun fix.  You bastardos.   8)

Ah, but isn't that the best possible thing in the WORLD?

[Andrew_TSKS]

oh shit, difficult, you drew out one of the Velvet Ropers!

[Good Intentions]

I was trying to figure this shit out

Maybe it's true! Why are you guys hiding?

[difficult]

I'd say Over The Moon is the one that really separates the diehards from the casuals, but that's mostly because it's the one that tests me the most (and it's like an open book test w/ the teacher's notes, so, y'know, it's peasy).  

FWIW, I first heard the Vs via Superchunk (& No Alternative), "got" them via WOW, and then worked my way backwards towards the stuff that everyone dies for (which I like just fine, esp. Hallelujah, tho I will always be a sucker for the Alt Nation GD).

Yeah, I can understand an affection for the things that first beat you over the head and said "Hey! Listen to me or your life will be meaningless!". That is, after all, what I'm doing. But I come from here, and part of that is that by Way Out Where, we knew 'em well.

But hey, if we're going to talk about Flying Nun, I'll start rattlin gon in alarming fashion about the Puddle. Does anyoen in America know the Puddle? One of the all time great bands that never made, led by a bonafide pop genius, weirdo riff heaven, almost always recorded unbelievably badly. Anyone? Anyone?

[David R.]

oh shit, difficult, you drew out one of the Velvet Ropers!

OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT

[rockmeamadeus]

oh shit, difficult, you drew out one of the Velvet Ropers!

OH SHIT OH SHIT OH SHIT

Ahahahahaha....

Difficult is conquering the discussion with his undeniable NZ street-cred. Thank heavens, tho, for the Superchunk cover, which drew me to the band... I've actaully never heard Way Out Where, but I've got the Juvenalia comp, and Hallelujah SOMEWHERE. Must dig it out and listen 'til my ears bleed.

[Trousers and Pat]

I got my copy of some disenchanted evening from my old radio station a few years ago. They were just going to throw it away!
"We're all gonna die" is a killer song.

[difficult]

Well, it is nice to see that people are at least vaguely aware of the Verlaines, and they didn't just disappear into a void when they got signed by a major, and toured n' all. Although it seems that less credit should go to Slash, and more to Mac and co.
Wonder what would have happened if it'd all been a year or two later, and they could have gone with Merge (who were real small at the time, as I recall). May well have been quite different - Slash did even worse things to the Chills.
That was the brief period where Flying Nun bands were being signed to majors internationally - Arista had an indifferent go at the Straitjacket Fits as well, who were a very different beast. None of their records ever remotely captured what a great live band they could be.
Of course, with any NZ thing after Flying Nun lost it, almost everything came out on overseas labels for a while except for the really poppy (or mediocre) stuff. And now it's actually really rare to hear of anybody caring about those NZ bands...
Although quite a decent number of old NZ types have started playing again recently, or touring, or recording. The Verlaines last toured last year - I didn't go, should have - this year we've seen the Renderers, The Puddle, Cakekitchen, I've been promised a Terminals gig in Wellington (best live band ever by the way, never played outside NZ), and there's been scary or overpriced reunions by Straitjackets, Chills, even the bloody Children's Hour....


And I assume by undeniable NZ street cred, you mean I live on a street in NZ, well, I guess, but my street is actually a row of steps as many are in Wellington...

[John]

Terminals gig in Wellington

!!!

[difficult]

Yeah, they usually play 1 gig every year. I think there may even be a new album coming too. They're still really great as well. All these crazy 50 or so year old guys with memories of violence still written all over them - I mean Peter Stapleton is very quiet and considered now, but he used to do things like get into fights onstage with Bill Direen in the Vacuum, and it still sort of shows... And they're fucking loud, and Stephen Cogle is just the best singer, and Mick Elborado is genuinely crazy, as well as a great showman...

Actually Bill Direen played here this year too - this 2 hour plus solo set, almost all requests, to about 20- 30 people...