Depression thread

[Andrew_TSKS]

i find this part of the article interesting:

Duman, for instance, began to study a class of proteins known as trophic factors, which help neurons grow and survive. Trophe is Greek for nourishment; what sunlight and water do for trees, trophic factors do for brain cells. Numerous studies had shown that chronic stress damages the brain by suppressing the release of trophic factors. In a series of influential papers published earlier this decade, Duman demonstrated that the same destructive hallmark is seen in depression, so that our neurons are deprived of what they need.

...because, ever since i read an article that took a neurological approach to stress and depression a few years ago, it has seemed really plausible to me that a lot of my own problems with depression stem from emotional traumas early in life. so this is another scientific article that takes that approach, and again, it makes a lot of sense.

[Andrew_TSKS]

also:

While antidepressants help brain cells recover their vigor and form new connections, Castren says that patients must still work to cement these connections in place, perhaps with therapy. He compares antidepressants with anabolic steroids, which increase muscle mass only when subjects also go to the gym.

they're just now figuring this out? i've been saying this for years!

[C of heartbreak]

I'm not gonna post the long ass treatise I wrote, but suffice it to say that my opinion is that blaming depression on your brain is like blaming hunger on your stomach.

[Good Intentions]

also:

While antidepressants help brain cells recover their vigor and form new connections, Castren says that patients must still work to cement these connections in place, perhaps with therapy. He compares antidepressants with anabolic steroids, which increase muscle mass only when subjects also go to the gym.

they're just now figuring this out? i've been saying this for years!

Now, they're not just figuring it out, but it makes good copy.

[slow west vultures]

(i still haven't read the article but) i don't think that describing depression in terms of neuronal death is blaming it on your brain.  its an observation of a process occuring in your body.  you still have to explain what is going on in your environment, or what mental stimulation you lack to explain the psychological and behavioral forces that are causing such atrophy.  noting that depression involves a certain amount of neuronal atrophy doesn't do away with psychology or analysis of human behavior in any sense.  

[theartlessmonster]

I'm not gonna post the long ass treatise I wrote, but suffice it to say that my opinion is that blaming depression on your brain is like blaming hunger on your stomach.

Interesting observation, but here is what i'm thinking your body can shit out what you feed it and it does not need, sometimes you can't shit things out of your head.  So the shit just stays and swirls like a sewage plant or something.

[C of heartbreak]

Well what I meant was, there are needs, much like physical sustenance, that need to be met in order to have a healthy brain, and that we as a society are not meeting them. Physically, depression is in the brain, just like hunger is in the stomach (horribly simplified of course), but you can't actually cure the real problem of hunger by fixing the stomach.

[theartlessmonster]

Well what I meant was, there are needs, much like physical sustenance, that need to be met in order to have a healthy brain, and that we as a society are not meeting them. Physically, depression is in the brain, just like hunger is in the stomach (horribly simplified of course), but you can't actually cure the real problem of hunger by fixing the stomach.

no i agree you need to get at the root cause of it, like any issue, medical or otherwise.

i'm curious because i was thinking about this the other day, what role do you think insecurity plays in depression?  most people i know that are depressed are also highly insecure and i had some thoughts around that, but i'd be curious to see what you guys think...

[hannah]

boogers

[slow west vultures]

Well what I meant was, there are needs, much like physical sustenance, that need to be met in order to have a healthy brain, and that we as a society are not meeting them. Physically, depression is in the brain, just like hunger is in the stomach (horribly simplified of course), but you can't actually cure the real problem of hunger by fixing the stomach.

no i agree you need to get at the root cause of it, like any issue, medical or otherwise.

i'm curious because i was thinking about this the other day, what role do you think insecurity plays in depression?  most people i know that are depressed are also highly insecure and i had some thoughts around that, but i'd be curious to see what you guys think...

i think you could list a number of other qualities (guilt, lethargy, self-criticism )that a lot of depressed people share, but i think those could be more outgrowths of the depression than inherent to the condition itself.  or conversely they could be a personal trait that makes you vulnerable to depression.  a lot of different things can 'cause' depression.  if you're insecure, you might avoid social situations, and by avoiding social situations you could feel depressed and miss out on social contact that might make you not feel so depressed.  but i don't think insecurity is any more inherent to depression than any other potential vulnerablity.  i see depression as the spot in the middle of a venn diagram where all the circles overlap - the circles could be anything, unhappy childhood, anxiety, recent reversal of fortune . . . and depression is the kind of common feeling in the center that all these experiences can share. 

[slow west vultures]

Well what I meant was, there are needs, much like physical sustenance, that need to be met in order to have a healthy brain, and that we as a society are not meeting them. Physically, depression is in the brain, just like hunger is in the stomach (horribly simplified of course), but you can't actually cure the real problem of hunger by fixing the stomach.

after reading the article i tend to agree with your suspicion C.  the article does treat it like depression is just your brain cells in need of watering, oh and look who makes miracle-gro for your brain cells: prozac!  i mean, don't get me wrong, ssris can work, but they can also make you complacent and not all that inspired to go and mentally 'work out.'  so when i read a sentence like this

"If you just sit on your couch, then steroids aren't going to be very effective," he says. "Antidepressants are the same way: if you want the drug to work for you, then you have to work for the drug."

i kind of laugh, because my experience with ssris is that they definitely make it easier just to sit on the couch.  it sounds like there's a subtle accusation that people aren't trying hard enough to make these ssri's 'work' which is kind of bullshit.  serotonin is not the master motivating chemical.  that's dopamine's job.  if anything it gives you a feeling of satisfaction or satiety.  so to say that people aren't using these drugs right is bullshit.  its a lot more complicated than that, and you shouldn't assume that the effects of one (very popular) drug are revealing the secrets to depression.

[Andrew_TSKS]

to be fair, i think maybe they were making the point (and it is a good one) that doctors prescribe those drugs without also prescribing therapy, and that therapy needs to happen in conjunction with the prozac or little good will be done.

[jebreject]

andrew = right

[skittixch]

I can't sleep...when I try to sleep, all the most depressing things in the world come to mind...

I have nights like this every few months or so...my life is going fine, I'm having a great time, but just..every once in a while, it's like I'm hit with a huge fucking hammer of "EVERYTHING AWFUL EVER"

god damnit!

[jess]

New study suggests that exercise does not help depression, rather, people who like exercise more also just are inherently less likely to be depressed. Interesting in the face of the research that suggests exercise is at least as effective as meds, though I haven't looked at thoroughly enough to see if it seemed to take into account genetic effects, like this study does. I could certainly believe that people who like being active are less depression prone.

[heather marie]

I think it depends on the depression w/r/t to exercise. Exercise doesn't make me less depressed, but for those moments I am doing something active and sweating and taking all the endorphins in, I'm less focused on my depression/anxiety and focusing on how good it feels.

[Andrew_TSKS]

Hah, and I don't really like being active, so that explains some things.

But I don't know how much I buy it. On one hand, the period when I was living by myself was one of the most depressed periods of my life, and I was riding my bike 20 miles a day 5 days a week, which is more regular exercise than I've gotten at any other point in my life. On the other hand, a lot of times getting exercise does feel good to me, even though I don't really like doing it.

[C of heartbreak]

Not to be overly simplistic, I'm pretty sure you all know I take depression very seriously, but I think it should be clear that exercise helps as far as it's time spent doing something productive instead of sitting on your ass feeling sorry for yourself.

I'd really like to see more details on that study, because it sounds like all that happened was they found a link between the inclination to exercise and functionality. So it's important as far as adding to the study of exercise and depression but it doesn't really tell us anything on its own. Also, which gene is the exercise gene? And can it be used to help curb America's obesity problem? 

[Andrew_TSKS]

The gene that causes America's obesity problem isn't a gene in humans, it's a gene in corn.

Which is my way of saying that if we could just get America back to sweetening things with sugar, the obesity epidemic would reduce in scale quite a bit. But no, the corn lobby is too powerful, it'll never happen.

[Greg Nog]

Lately, I've been on this huge fucking honey kick, using it to sweeten things wherever I'd usually use sugar.  I started doing it when I was reading a book about the history of New England cuisine, and it was talking about how the colonists used to use honey before they started importing sugar from Caribbean as part of the whole sugar/rum/slave system.  So naturally, I started thinking about an alternate-universe early America where slavery didn't exist, and how that would have changed the cuisine of the predominantly-British settlers in New England.

It's a really interesting little shift in taste, and I'm totally digging honey these days.  It's a shame all the bees are depressed and dying.

[jess]

Not to be overly simplistic, I'm pretty sure you all know I take depression very seriously, but I think it should be clear that exercise helps as far as it's time spent doing something productive instead of sitting on your ass feeling sorry for yourself.

I'd really like to see more details on that study, because it sounds like all that happened was they found a link between the inclination to exercise and functionality. So it's important as far as adding to the study of exercise and depression but it doesn't really tell us anything on its own. Also, which gene is the exercise gene? And can it be used to help curb America's obesity problem? 

I don't think it's saying that exercise doesn't help depression at all (I oversimplified in posting it)--it's saying that the large affect that has previously attributed to it may well be more about the underlying genetics. If you are the type to consistently exercise for whatever reason, you may just inherently be less likely to be depressed, more than the exercise causing that lack of depression. I don't think one study is by any means conclusive (hence, "suggests"); more that it's something important to think about.

I find for me it exercise/activity helps my mood significantly, but then I don't have depression, and definitely not major depressive episodes--more cyclothymia if anything, so I know getting myself revved up in any way tends to improve my mood. But I think that could be part of the point in that my family (one side of it anyway) is all like that, so I'm pretty sure that ability to rev up easily and get momentum and get back to feeling good is a genetic thing, where some people have less of that response or less consistent of one. I'd theorize that one's inate response to exercise might be tied less to the ability to feel depressed at all than to the "stickiness" of one's depression. For the people who get intrenched in deep depression for long stretches of time, I'd guess they might be less likely sensitive to endorphins and whatnot, or maybe they don't produce as much, and perhaps then less able to use that boost productively, whereas people who can usually switch out of feeling down more quickly are more sensitive or something along those lines. (This all just my hypothesizing.)

Basically, I think the takeway is that the relationship between exercise and depression is probably more complicated than some people suggest, and depends a fair bit on the individual and their physiology as well. It's part of why telling someone who is deeply depressed to just start running (which I've heard many people do) like that's answer may be misguided.

Also, for what it's worth, genetic != there being a gene for something. It means your genes in total have an effect on it. I doubt there's much in psychology that's controlled by a single gene.

[jess]

The gene that causes America's obesity problem isn't a gene in humans, it's a gene in corn.

Which is my way of saying that if we could just get America back to sweetening things with sugar, the obesity epidemic would reduce in scale quite a bit. But no, the corn lobby is too powerful, it'll never happen.

I'm pretty skeptical about that. I avoid corn syrup when I can, mostly because if I'm getting sweetened stuff, it tastes better with sugar, but the chemical makeup of it is actually pretty similar to sucrose (table sugar)--close to 50/50 glucose and fructose, with a slight tilt more toward fructose. I can't imagine that being the cause of obesity so much more than decreasing activity and overeating and eating more processed/packaged foods. I do think the high amounts of sweeteners and crap in junk food in general could play a role, since those things seem to be appetite stimulating and perpetuate the cycle of eating more, but I think sugar would still have the same problem.

I am curious about agave syrup, since it's supposed to not raise blood sugars as much or nearly at all. I might have to do an experiment about that.

[C of heartbreak]

Not to be overly simplistic, I'm pretty sure you all know I take depression very seriously, but I think it should be clear that exercise helps as far as it's time spent doing something productive instead of sitting on your ass feeling sorry for yourself.

I'd really like to see more details on that study, because it sounds like all that happened was they found a link between the inclination to exercise and functionality. So it's important as far as adding to the study of exercise and depression but it doesn't really tell us anything on its own. Also, which gene is the exercise gene? And can it be used to help curb America's obesity problem? 

I don't think it's saying that exercise doesn't help depression at all (I oversimplified in posting it)--it's saying that the large affect that has previously attributed to it may well be more about the underlying genetics. If you are the type to consistently exercise for whatever reason, you may just inherently be less likely to be depressed, more than the exercise causing that lack of depression. I don't think one study is by any means conclusive (hence, "suggests"); more that it's something important to think about.

I find for me it exercise/activity helps my mood significantly, but then I don't have depression, and definitely not major depressive episodes--more cyclothymia if anything, so I know getting myself revved up in any way tends to improve my mood. But I think that could be part of the point in that my family (one side of it anyway) is all like that, so I'm pretty sure that ability to rev up easily and get momentum and get back to feeling good is a genetic thing, where some people have less of that response or less consistent of one. I'd theorize that one's inate response to exercise might be tied less to the ability to feel depressed at all than to the "stickiness" of one's depression. For the people who get intrenched in deep depression for long stretches of time, I'd guess they might be less likely sensitive to endorphins and whatnot, or maybe they don't produce as much, and perhaps then less able to use that boost productively, whereas people who can usually switch out of feeling down more quickly are more sensitive or something along those lines. (This all just my hypothesizing.)

Basically, I think the takeway is that the relationship between exercise and depression is probably more complicated than some people suggest, and depends a fair bit on the individual and their physiology as well. It's part of why telling someone who is deeply depressed to just start running (which I've heard many people do) like that's answer may be misguided.

Also, for what it's worth, genetic != there being a gene for something. It means your genes in total have an effect on it. I doubt there's much in psychology that's controlled by a single gene.

I mainly responded that way because I'm pretty annoyed at the way science journalism treats every noteworthy study like it does produce conclusions. But I definitely agree with you about the complexity between exercise and depression. When I was pretty seriously depressed I would go running, and it felt mainly like an escape, both because I was doing it to get away but also because it gave me the feeling that I was just putting off the inevitable. So I'd run really hard to keep myself from thinking about that, and I'd wear myself out, and any benefit I got from the exercise was lost from the exhaustion and the inability to run again any time soon.

And of course, if I'd had the ability to plan a regular, healthy exercise routine, I might not have been so depressed in the first place.

On the genes thing, I just don't think anybody is genetically predisposed to exercise. I mean it's  possible, but exercise is such a cultural thing that it's hard to imagine. Though if the study showed that twins separated at birth exercised the same amount I'd be willing to believe it.

[Ignatius]

On the corn thing: I'm kind of amazed corn booze isn't more popular in this country...  Corn has replaced the raw stuff of our sweeteners, our breakfast cereals and snack foods, and now has a little piece of the fuel market.  If corn has a hand in all of America's favorite things, shouldn't there be some kind of mildly alcoholic beerish corn drink as well? Or is the hops + barley/brewer's lobby just as strong?

I've known people who exercised their way out of depression, or at least used running and stuff as a major therapy.  But for the most part, I think those had a lot to do with body-image issues, and that's a little different. More commonly, a friend (or myself) will start running, and just give up after two or three weeks, not seeing enough improvement during the other 23 hours of the day to stick with it. And, all those nerves and anxieties that would prevent someone from going to class or the grocery store don't disappear when it's time to put on some shorts and run around.

[C of heartbreak]

On the corn thing: I'm kind of amazed corn booze isn't more popular in this country...  Corn has replaced the raw stuff of our sweeteners, our breakfast cereals and snack foods, and now has a little piece of the fuel market.  If corn has a hand in all of America's favorite things, shouldn't there be some kind of mildly alcoholic beerish corn drink as well? Or is the hops + barley/brewer's lobby just as strong?

Where do you think whiskey comes from?