Campaign '08: Now With 100% More Hatin'!

[diesel_powered]

Continued from: http://www.lastplanetojakarta.com/forums/index.php/topic,9885.525.html

[andronicus]

Get the hate kicked off by just saying that, I too, once had the Libertarian Revelation.  I remember having this conversation with my grandparents about how it is pretty obvious from the Constitution that the states were intended to independently govern their own affairs (They said, God bless them, 'you're starting to sound like a Republican').

But then I turned 9.

[diesel_powered]

OH SNAP!

[Mesmerize]

A Ulysses-quoting, Lou Dobbs-repping libertarian?  I'm more and more convinced he's just pollo fucking with us. 

no, sorry, I'm a real person.

and oh god for the record, I mentioned Lou Dobbs ONLY because right after I finished writing a post about this country's miserable public education system I went and turned on CNN and saw Lou Dobbs talking about the very same thing and couldn't help mentioning it.  I don't think the guy's some kind of holy authority or whatever the fuck you people are trying to imply.

and no one's going to fucking get rid of social security so you can stop putting those words in my mouth as well.  I wish Andrew were here so he could respond somewhat sensibly and thoughtfully to what I said instead of a bunch of empty one liners.

[andronicus]

Hey Mesmerize if your position on education is anything more complex than 'privatize it' then I've got nuff respeck for you; there exists out there a tradition of political thought that's both libertarian and profoundly communitarian, and I really have a lot of respect for what those people have to say. 

This post is an olive branch as I cringe to think we might cross the line from healthy hateration to bullying, but if your post contains the word 'charter' sweartagad I'll probably have to make fun of you some more.

[elpollodiablo]

I'm just fuckin with you guys tho, really

[DCDave]

I don't understand how a person can be libertarian and support Social Security.

[Mesmerize]

the answer there is I'm not libertarian.  not exactly.

[coldforge]

Mesmerize, you would crucify us on a Cross Of Gold

[elpollodiablo]

Just so you know, if it would fit, this:

"hey lou dobbs is about to run a piece, what he just called the most comprehensive look at how our education system has FAILED.  maybe you should watch."

would so totally be my signature right now

[elpollodiablo]

That's sort of akin to saying in the midst of an argument about health care 'Hey that paint-thinner huffing bum that lives in that dumpster three blocks down is diagnosing illnesses on the street corner for FREE. Maybe you should go down there'

[DCDave]

That's sort of akin to saying in the midst of an argument about health care 'Hey that paint-thinner huffing bum that lives in that dumpster three blocks down is diagnosing illnesses on the street corner for FREE. Maybe you should go down there'

Just so you know, if this fit it would totally be my signature

[elpollodiablo]

I do not know how to use hyphens

[Antero]

Mesmerize, you would crucify us on a Cross Of Gold

Ten points.

[dieblucasdie]

the answer there is I'm not libertarian.  not exactly.

Yeah, I was going to say this.  I have a certain amount of sympathy for true libertarianism--smash teh system etc etc, but I don't get the rah rah rah states' rights crowd at all.

I don't know how anyone could look at the churning cesspool that is state-level government and think "These guys could do it so much better!"

[elpollodiablo]

Ohio state govt is seriously fucked up.

[FreddyKnuckles]

who was it who said that if the supreme court lost the ability for judicial review of the US legislature it wouldn't be that big of a deal but if they lost the ability for review of the laws of the several states it would completely destroy the cuntry?

[Antero]

*snerk*

"cuntry."

[FreddyKnuckles]

I did it on accident and purposely didn't fix it.

[FreddyKnuckles]

holmes

“I do not think the United States would come to an end if we lost our power to declare an Act of Congress void. I do think the Union would be imperiled if we could not make that declaration as to the laws of the several States.”

[lastclearchance]

I wish Andrew were here so he could respond somewhat sensibly and thoughtfully to what I said instead of a bunch of empty one liners.

The one liners aren't empty, you're just ignoring them. But since you're being willfully blockheaded I'll bite:

Note that getting rid of the Dept. of Education does not mean getting rid of public schooling.  Just fucking let schools be run locally.  Why do we need national standards on education?  Quoting again,

Funding decisions increasingly have been controlled by bureaucrats in Washington, causing public and even some private schools to follow the dictates of these federal "educrats" to an ever-greater degree to preserve their funding. As a result, curricula, teacher standards, textbook selection, and discipline policies have been crafted in Washington. Rigorous classes in basics such as mathematics, grammar, science, Western civilization, and history have been reduced or eliminated, while politically favored subjects have been forced upon students.

Of course, he goes on in the next sentence to complain about how religious observation has been forbidden in schools, which for me is neither here nor there.  Point is, as a nation over the past 20 years or whatever, we've been getting progressively stupider.  Even Mike Huckabee acknowledges that.  The solution is NOT more federal control.

so how does your solution address the fact that the worst schools are often in the poorest areas? i mean, part of the reason we are fucking with you is that you sound like a pretty young person who has no conception of the numerous economic, social, etc. advantages you have had in your life. i'm not convinced your main concern with public schooling isn't just that you were bored at school and felt like the curriculum was beneath you, and you think everyone is like that.

[Mesmerize]

I know exactly what kinds of advantages I've been "blessed" with or whatever in my life.  It has little to do with me being bored in school.  It has to do with the fact that, globally, we're falling well behind the pack.  Me being young (20) and in a state college, I'd say I have a pretty good idea, just looking around every day, of the average intelligence of my generation, and let me tell you, it doesn't look good.  If only drinking beer was a viable career path.  we're a generation of obnoxious drunken fools.  whereas china is pumping out scientists and engineers like nobody's business.  see this. 

In 2003, American students trailed most industrialized nations in math and
science scores on Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) testing.
In science, U.S. students ranked “significantly below the OECD average,”
finishing 19th out of 29 nations with a median score of 491. Japan and Finland
led all nations with a median of 548. The results were equally alarming for
mathematics testing, with U.S. students finishing 21st out of 29 countries. Just
10 percent of American students were ranked as “top performers,” while Hong
Kong/China had more than 30 percent of its students in that category. 
 
• The same study conducted by OECD dispels the myth that the disparities across
nations are the result of education spending. It says that the United States has
the poorest achievement outcomes per dollar spent on education. In fact, the
Czech Republic was one of the top performing nations in the study despite
spending one-third the amount per student compared to the United States.

as for your question, if the wealth in this country weren't so fucking concentrated in the top 1%, there would be much more money flowing into those poor areas.  it all goes back to the monetary issue.  stop printing so much, stop spending so much on warmongering foreign policy, stop letting corporations suck up all of the wealth, so that it can be freely distributed back into the market and to the people and places where it's needed the most.

[elpollodiablo]

The foremost and obvious problem with that line of thinking being that the market rarely, let's be realistic, NEVER distributes the wealth where it's needed the most.

[coldforge]

Wait a minute, are you saying that if we stop printing money and revert to the gold standard that we will erase poverty?

[Good Intentions]

I'm sorry, mate, you haven't yet managed to give anything you said descriptive content. 'Globally we're falling behind the pack' walks and talks like a sentence that means something, but it actually doesn't mean anything other than 'current US trajectory = '. The same goes for your comments on the average intelligence of your generation, and the successes of China's education system, and so on - all of it carries as much propositional content as you saying US students drink too much beer, that is, none at fucking all. I know nothing about the state of the world from reading your posts. I know quite a bit about how you feel about certain things, since you insist on shouting 'yay!' or 'boo!' at the top of your fucking lungs all over the thread. But without giving some concrete idea of what you're on about, rather than just shouting out buzzwords (which, I'm sorry to break this to you, are by themselves closer to context clues than they are actual dialogue), we've got nothing to engage with. Everybody that's tried to talk to you has had to guess what your positions are, because you haven't told us shit except that you sure like Ron Paul. We're left in the position too much like that of someone crouching down to get face to face with an excitable puppy, going: "What is it, boy?! What is it?! Wow, he sure seems worked up about something!"