the continuing story of the 2008 political election

[Andrew_TSKS]

[probably still with more hating.]

Like I said, there are good, concrete reasons one might choose Clinton over Obama. (A lot of people prefer her healthcare plan, or her Iraq withdrawal plan).  And fair enough.  We can argue about that or we can disagree.  But repeating sound-bite smears is not something I'm interested in.

let's talk about healthcare plans for a second. here's the thing i've learned about clinton and obama re healthcare: they both want to make publicly available a government health-care plan, for those who don't get insurance through their employers. this plan will supposedly be cheaper than anything else currently available, which is great. but most people will be left going through their employers wack-ass hmo, which i think is bullshit. also, i don't know if the government health-care plan would even be worth it; more reading is required. anyway, here's the crucial difference:

hillary says that her plan would "cover every person in america, something obama's plan wouldn't do". that's true, but it's true in an orwellian doublespeak way--hillary's plan would make every american required by law to have healthcare, either through their employer or through one of these governmental plans that would be newly available to the public. fuck your income level, you would be required by law to come up with the scratch to pay for one of these plans. i'm not sure what the punishment would be, or how they'd enforce it, but i imagine that what would happen is if you didn't get the plan and then needed health care, penalties would rain down upon you like a motherfucker, and you might have trouble even getting the healthcare at all.

meanwhile, obama wants to open up the same options to people, but does not want to require by law that everyone get one of these plans. he recognizes that some people might not be able to afford one, and doesn't want to strap anyone financially. to me, that's better than hillary's plan. of course, IT STILL KINDA SUCKS, because i don't think universal health care is even worth fucking discussing if it's not going to cover every man woman and child in this country, and do so with funds drawn from a tax base instead of payments from citizens or employers or whomever the fuck. the various catastrophic flaws in our health care system will not be fixed by either obama or clinton's version of this health care plan. the massive corporate infrastructure of private health care will continue to exist unabated in this country (actually, it might slow down slightly, as people may opt out of their employer-provided health care in favor of a governmental plan if it makes more economic sense--again, more reading will be required before i know if this will be possible or worthwhile for anyone). but on the whole, i prefer obama's plan, just because it's not going to require by law that i incur an additional expense to my already limited budget.

anyone have thoughts about this? anyone who's read more than me about this issue got any info or links to throw down? i'm interested in discussing this further.

[jess]

Hillary's plan is basically happening in Massachusetts right now. So far, it's not going that well, as far as I can tell, and no one seems to be talking about that nearly enough. It's fantastically expensive, the coverage is iffy and still fairly expensive for the people who now are forced to purchase it.

Some stories on it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/25/us/politics/25mass.html
http://www.boston.com/news/health/articles/2008/01/24/cost_of_health_initiative_up_400m/
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2007/03/03/patrick_to_unveil_recommendations_for_lower_cost_health_plans/

[DCDave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JnwkY2L74c

[Andrew_TSKS]

that article from the ny times is so depressing.

and see, i was thinking about this, and they require you to have insurance on your car, but if you really end up strapped for cash, you can sell your car and cancel your insurance. you'll always have your body no matter how poor you are--you can't sell it if you can't afford it anymore. so laws like that are patently unfair.

But the reluctance of so many to enroll, along with the possible exemption of 60,000 residents who cannot afford premiums, has raised questions about whether even a mandate can guarantee truly universal coverage.

Additional concerns have been generated by projections that the state’s insurers plan to raise rates 10 percent to 12 percent next year, twice this year’s national average. That would undercut the plan’s secondary goal of slowing the increase in health costs.

the thing they don't seem to understand is that truly universal coverage can only be guaranteed by universal socialized health care. there's no way to do it while the system remains capitalist/for-profit in nature.

oh and dave, i liked that barack obama ad a lot too.

[C of heartbreak]

Hillary's plan sucks.

[FreddyKnuckles]

is there a lot of to do about hillary's plan?  Everyone around me is talking about how terrible it is  etc.

[dieblucasdie]

Well, like Andrew points out, it allows her to get up there in speeches and debates and say, "My healthcare plan is the only one that will cover everyone!"  Which is technically true, and sounds good if you don't know the details.

[DCDave]

I have literally watched that Obama ad 6 times today.

PS

FEBRUARY 3, 2008: Clinton Says People Who Don't Sign Up For Health Insurance "Won't Have to Pay Fines"; Then Says One Option For Enforcement is "Going After People's Wages." When asked about her enforcement mechanism, Clinton said, "Well, they don't have to pay fines, George. We want them to have insurance. We want it to be affordable." When pushed again on whether or not she would garnish wages, Clinton said, "George, we will have an enforcement mechanism, whether it's that or it's or it's some other mechanism through the tax system or automatic enrollments…And the reason why I think there are a number of mechanisms, going after people's wages, automatic enrollment, when you are at the place of employment, you will be automatically enrolled, whatever the mechanism is." [ABC, 2/3/08]

[diesel_powered]

Gross.

[dieblucasdie]

It's still preferable to any of the GOP plans, which as far as I can tell all consist of "Keep those damn Mexicans out of our hospitals."

But yeah, Obama's plan is much better.

[DCDave]

Especially this part:

Support disease management programs. Seventy five percent of total health care dollars are spent on patients with one or more chronic conditions, such as diabetes, heart disease and high blood pressure. Obama will require that providers that participate in the new public plan, Medicare or the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program (FEHBP) utilize proven disease management programs. This will improve quality of care, give doctors better information and lower costs.


And this part:

Require full transparency about quality and costs. Obama will require hospitals and providers to collect and publicly report measures of health care costs and quality, including data on preventable medical errors, nurse staffing ratios, hospital-acquired infections, and disparities in care. Health plans will also be required to disclose the percentage of premiums that go to patient care as opposed to administrative costs.

And this part

Align incentives for excellence. Both public and private insurers tend to pay providers based on the volume of services provided, rather than the quality or effectiveness of care. Providers who see patients enrolled in the new public plan, the National Health Insurance Exchange, Medicare and FEHBP will be rewarded for achieving performance thresholds on outcome measures.

And basically the whole thing.

[FreddyKnuckles]

It must have been what dave just posted.  I don't mean in general, I just mean that people around me right now are talking about it. 


From the mouths of actual existing republicans: "If this is an election year of backlash, and we're destined to elect a democratic president this year for a variety of reasons, we could do a lot lot worse than Obama".

What this means: elect-ability

Republicans will violently oppose Clinton.  Republicans are gonna stay home if obama is the nominee.

[dieblucasdie]

Well, yeah.  Obama is the smart money if you're concerned about electability.

I think the GOP faithful's relationship with Clinton is hilarious, though.  Half seem convinced that if she's the nominee, there will be this popular uprising against her and she'll lose horribly.  The other half, still scarred by Bill's resilience back in the day, are convinced that the Clintons are some kind of undefeatable voodoo priests.

Basically they manage to underestimate her and overestimate her at the same time: a neat trick.

[elpollodiablo]

It's really too bad the guy who was talking about universal health care got fucked in the ass by the media. Edwards was my first choice, with Clinton a tentative second.


*Also I'm just curious: was anyone else pulling for Edwards early on?

[DCDave]

It's really too bad the guy who was talking about universal health care got fucked in the ass by the media. Edwards was my first choice, with Clinton a tentative second.

A tort lawyer isn't really my first choice to fix the healthcare system.

Also, healthcare isn't an all/none proposition.  Current government sponsored healthcare costs are rising faster than any other government expenditures.  Universal healthcare would only make that worse.  The problems with healthcare policy aren't just extension of coverage issues, they're appropriateness of coverage and appropriateness of payments issues.  Clinton's plan passes the burden to the individual to purchase their own healthcare plan, without any means of addressing costs of payments, validity of services, etc.  There is little about her plan that will push costs, and the government's payment of those costs, down.  Obama's plan involves instituting, instead of just hand-waving about universal healthcare, a number of measures that will attempt to fix huge gaps in the system. 

[FreddyKnuckles]

Well, yeah.  Obama is the smart money if you're concerned about electability.

I think the GOP faithful's relationship with Clinton is hilarious, though.  Half seem convinced that if she's the nominee, there will be this popular uprising against her and she'll lose horribly.  The other half, still scarred by Bill's resilience back in the day, are convinced that the Clintons are some kind of undefeatable voodoo priests.

Basically they manage to underestimate her and overestimate her at the same time: a neat trick.

Yeah, thats all true.  I guess what else the guy who said that meant was that some republicans have a view that they are going to lose this year no matter who the nominee is, and they'd waaaay rather see obama in the oval office.

[dieblucasdie]

It's going to be interesting, if Obama does get the nomination, to hear what those same Republicans are saying this summer, after conservative media outlets start going after him in earnest.  We already know Clinton can survive it; they've been somewhat hesitant to go after Obama so far.

[elpollodiablo]

It's really too bad the guy who was talking about universal health care got fucked in the ass by the media. Edwards was my first choice, with Clinton a tentative second.

A tort lawyer isn't really my first choice to fix the healthcare system.

That's kind of a cheap cop out, yo. I mean really dude probably had a better grip on things from all his years as a tort lawyer.

[FreddyKnuckles]

It's going to be interesting, if Obama does get the nomination, to hear what those same Republicans are saying this summer, after conservative media outlets start going after him in earnest.  We already know Clinton can survive it; they've been somewhat hesitant to go after Obama so far.

yeah, I'm not talking about bill oreilly here, I'm talking about Joe Republican, with only a mild interest in the process. 

[DCDave]

It's really too bad the guy who was talking about universal health care got fucked in the ass by the media. Edwards was my first choice, with Clinton a tentative second.

A tort lawyer isn't really my first choice to fix the healthcare system.

That's kind of a cheap cop out, yo. I mean really dude probably had a better grip on things from all his years as a tort lawyer.

His plan was "Give everyone healthcare!" so I don't really think that he did. 

[diesel_powered]

Clinton... the only name able to strike fear into the hearts of the Republicans' satanic majesties.

[dieblucasdie]

It's going to be interesting, if Obama does get the nomination, to hear what those same Republicans are saying this summer, after conservative media outlets start going after him in earnest.  We already know Clinton can survive it; they've been somewhat hesitant to go after Obama so far.

yeah, I'm not talking about bill oreilly here, I'm talking about Joe Republican, with only a mild interest in the process. 

Oh, I know.  I am too.  Joe Republican will say things like, "Obama's not so bad" now, when he's up against Clinton.  I'm saying that I wonder if that's going to be the case if he's up against McCain or Romney, and the sole focus of conservative talk radio's ire for months on end.

[elpollodiablo]

It's not like it isn't possible, though. Just cut the holy hell out of military spending and realign some national priorities.

xpos, to Dave

[dieblucasdie]

But... that's not what Edwards wanted to do.

[elpollodiablo]

Because if that's your stated agenda you are a far out whacko


btw it looks like Obama's got a lead on HC in CA.