the continuing story of the 2008 political election

[elpollodiablo]

I'm telling you, I've never seen a campaign whose boosters were like personally offended if you stood with someone else.

You kidding me?  Are you sure we live in the same country?

No. I dunno where the fuck you live.

[Antero]

Good point.

[Good Intentions]

Thermo, your argument doesn't really hang together. You initial example is the weakest part of it: an unhealthy family with male and female parents is not a counterexample to a mixed couple being necessary. It shows that having a man and woman is not sufficient for a healthy family. Yiour counterexample shows nothing. It's also irrelevent to the rest of your post.

The comparison of what percentage of the voter's motivation goes towards identity: you're ripping those numbers out of your ass, and they don't mean anything.

I'm also struggling to think who you're actually addressing, with the idea that someone becomes an appropriate target for election sorely because of their identity. John certainly didn't say so.

[Thermofusion]

I'm hesistant to even reply to this, because you failed to grasp a single thing I was saying.

The comparison of what percentage of the voter's motivation goes towards identity: you're ripping those numbers out of your ass, and they don't mean anything.

No shit, Sherlock.  I was presenting two hypothetical situations.  Of course those numbers were ripped out of my ass.  What I was trying to demonstrate was that every voter is going to have various internal impulses and thought processes driving them toward a particular candidate.  For one voter, 30% of it might be personally identifying with the race of a candidate and 70% because they like their platform.  For another voter, maybe 80% of why they're voting for a particular candidate is because they used to be a senator in their state and 20% because they just like 'em.  Of COURSE it's not ideal to put the complex internal processes of decision making into percentages, but, then again...it was a hypothetical situation for theoretical purposes only.

I'll repeat my point, since you didn't get it the first time:  I feel it's ignorant (not to mention horrifying) for someone to decide to vote for a candidate SOLELY (as in 100%) because of race, gender, religion, political party, etc, without considering the practical strengths and weaknesses of each candidate, examining their stances on various issues and thus making an informed decision.

[SPACERACE]

i don't think the person you're hypothesizing about exists

[Thermofusion]

You'll have to take my word for it on this, but I have a close friend who openly admitted she's voting for Hillary because she wants a woman president, and for basically no other reason.

I think a part of me died.

[Good Intentions]

No reason to get exited, champ.

If you present hypothetical situations, you need to show their relevence, which you didn't. As you presented it, it is a tale full of sound and fury, etc.

At the moment it is only your anecdotal story about your friend which is doing any work in your argument. And it is only anecdotal.

[DCDave]

He's offended that the anecdote exists, Marinus. 

Obama won Maine.

[Good Intentions]

No amount of disjointed argument is going to address his offence, that's all I'm saying.

[elpollodiablo]

TF today you become an LPTJ regular, because GI has chided you because your argument was weak. Welcome.

[elpollodiablo]

Dear god guys, give it a fuckin rest

[Good Intentions]

As if the pollo sarcasm fest doesn't do the same.

Each man must haze the noobs in his own way.

[Thermofusion]

No reason to get exited, champ.

If you present hypothetical situations, you need to show their relevence, which you didn't. As you presented it, it is a tale full of sound and fury, etc.

At the moment it is only your anecdotal story about your friend which is doing any work in your argument. And it is only anecdotal.

From http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/01/usnews/whispers/main3780215.shtml

Of course, not everyone was so quick to put aside the question of race. Atlanta native Harole McGuire, 76, summed up his support for Obama in two words. "He's black," he said, adding, "[Even] if he don't have a policy, I'm going to vote for him. He's my man."

and

Some like Jocelyn Kelley, a 24-year-old black college student at Fort Valley State University, had come especially for Obama, arriving hours early for the 11 a.m. service. (Kelley summed up her support: "To be perfectly honest, because he's black and I'm black.") Most of the crowd was regular churchgoers.

There's your motherfucking relevance.  And that's just one article after a 30 second Google search.

TF today you become an LPTJ regular, because GI has chided you because your argument was weak. Welcome.

It's an honor, sir.

[Good Intentions]

You're really getting worked up. The examples you are giving are still just anecdotal cases.

[Nick]

What are you looking for, GI? Do you want him to write a mathematical proof?

[diesel_powered]

I'd actually like to see that.

[Nick]

That's why I brought it up! 

[Good Intentions]

What are you looking for, GI? Do you want him to write a mathematical proof?

I want him to abandon his kneejerk reaction against people who are exited at seeing a woman or a black man in the presidency. The reasons he give for it certainly aren't up to the job of justifying it.

[Thermofusion]

I want him to abandon his kneejerk reaction against people who are exited at seeing a woman or a black man in the presidency. The reasons he give for it certainly aren't up to the job of justifying it.

I'm going to quote my own post for you, motherfucker, since you have the reading comprehension of burnt toast.

ultimately what makes the best candidate doesn't have to do with identity or skin color or sex.  That's not to say there's nothing wrong for voting because you identify with someone based on sex or skin color.  But that should NEVER be the SOLE REASON.

As is pretty obvious by now, I'm an Obama supporter. And yes, part of why I'm voting for him is because he's black, and even though I'm whiter than the paint on Aunt Polly's fence, it fills me with vicarious joy to see African Americans so excited about someone they can actually believe in.  And it also fills me with joy to see my female friends jazzed up that there's a strong, intelligent, empowered woman leading the Presidential race.  But, you know what?  I have to pinch myself.  Everytime I see Obama speak, I find it impossible to get caught up in the almost revival-like atmosphere, the near religious fervor, and the thousands of young voters who are actually inspired to get involved in politics.  But I've had to pinch myself.  I've had to examine where he stands, recognize and acknowledge his weaknesses and search in my soul for the answer to whether he's the best candidate or not.

[SPACERACE]

guy, he's not disagreeing with that. he's asking you to prove that it's a scenario that appears in enough of the voting population to be relevant. he's also saying that your friend and two people in a cbs story is not enough to prove this.

burnt toast may have something, here.

[Good Intentions]

Listen, if you're going to be rude, you'll just have to fuck off.

If I disagree with you, Thermo, it might not be because I'm stupid but perhaps just because I disagree with you. And your argument does nothing to convince me otherwise.

I've not waded in with why I think people are justified in being exited because it's not relevent to your argument, and I'd have to qualify it so deeply that it'll lack credibility, since, as I've said a few times before, this entire election process resembles nothing so much as a shift change at the abattoir

[Thermofusion]

guy, he's not disagreeing with that. he's asking you to prove that it's a scenario that appears in enough of the voting population to be relevant. he's also saying that your friend and one person in a cbs story is not enough to prove this.

That's just it.  To me, personally, it's relevant if ONE person votes based on these things.  I thought it was pretty clear when I started exploring this issue that I was talking about theory and principle, anyway.  Whether these things factor into influencing the election en masse is beside the point I was trying to make in the first place.

burnt toast may have something, here.

burnt toast got shit

[Good Intentions]

Listen, kid, just because you really really believe something doesn't make it of any interest to anybody else, especially not when you expect them to change their behaviour accordingly. Furthermore, your series of non-sequitors fail to address issues of theory and principle.

[Thermofusion]

I love how you point out holes in theory, dismiss what I say as anecdotal and accuse me of "reaching" without actually countering my point or attempting to engage it. 

[SPACERACE]

man, it's because your point is that 'i think it is very bad if someone votes because of x' and that is a point that no one cares about

and this is actually exactly what GI just said, so what does that say about burnt toast