the continuing story of the 2008 political election

[DCDave]

Listen, if you're going to be rude, you'll just have to fuck off.

If I disagree with you, Thermo, it might not be because I'm stupid but perhaps just because I disagree with you. And your argument does nothing to convince me otherwise.

I've not waded in with why I think people are justified in being exited because it's not relevent to your argument, and I'd have to qualify it so deeply that it'll lack credibility, since, as I've said a few times before, this entire election process resembles nothing so much as a shift change at the abattoir

 The entire election process results in billions of dollars of government spending being reprioritized.  If you think that doesn't make any difference at all in anyone's life, or a trivial difference, I don't know what to tell you.

[Thermofusion]

man, it's because your point is that 'i think it is very bad if someone votes because of x' and that is a point that no one cares about

and this is actually exactly what GI just said, so what does that say about burnt toast

It tells me burnt toast is a liar, because he's egged me on with meaningless high school debate team buzzwords for like ten posts on a topic that he allegedly doesn't care about.  That probably makes me the idiot though.

[El_Josharino]

Guys, burnt toast can be delicious sometimes.

[dieblucasdie]

You know, voting based solely on race or gender may not be the most sound decisionmaking process ever, but it beats "shares my values" "can best unite the nation" and "has the most experience," just to quote the reasons most cited by McCain, Obama, and Clinton voters, respectively.  

[SPACERACE]

Guys, burnt toast can be delicious sometimes.

that picture of him in stockings does prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, that's for sure.

[Good Intentions]

I didn't call you an idiot. I called you overexcited, and I think I can rest easy on that judgement.

I am very interested in people's motivations, and especially interested in how they approach entrenched structures of power. Even if I have no faith in any candidate, present or forthcoming, in addressing the systemic issues of the US government, I can still find something to care about in how people actually end up going about voting, much like how pundits still give attention to the Dem primary in Florida.

I think you don't appreciate the content of a judgement to the effect that Clinton or Obama is deserving of election based on being black or a woman, respectively. Anecdotal cases, removed from context and with no fleshing out, cannot address this content, which is more or less: it is good that the systemic oppression of blacks/women has relaxed to such a degree that it is possible for a black/woman to be raised into what is at least nominally the highest position in the country, and making sure that this happens is as worthy a cause as any other in this election.

Calling me names won't shore up your argument.

[Thermofusion]

It is good that the systemic oppression of blacks/women has relaxed to such a degree that it is possible for a black/woman to be raised into what is at least nominally the highest position in the country, and making sure that this happens is as worthy a cause as any other in this election.

No, the worthy cause in this election is that the American people choose the BEST candidate for the job.  The BEST candidate -- no matter whether they're white, black, female, gay, transgender, atheist, Christian, etc.  This is the essence of what I've been saying all along and I'm going to stop saying it since nobody cares about qualifications in this election.

Calling me names won't shore up your argument.

Well, bygones and stuff, and I'm sorry I got worked up and called you a motherfucker.

But toast is my new nickname for you and if you think I'm going to give it up, you can pry it from my dead cold fingers.

[elpollodiablo]

The best non-fag candidate, obviously

[jebreject]

Non-fag-non-Jew

[elpollodiablo]

I always forget that one

[jess]

Personally, I would love to see a woman president, because I think having one would make a difference, not just in the sense of how that particular leader makes decisions, but in how our country views women and their potential roles, in politics and otherwise. I think it could help in the efforts to work against the rampant amounts of sexism ingrained in our culture. (If you think we're not sexist anymore, well, that's another debate, and one I will have vigorously, but not here. And you're wrong, but whatever. I think most of you are on the same page more or less as me on that one anyway.) Someone could make the same arguments for a black president, which is why it's not stupid to take these things into consideration and to feel that they are in one's self-interest, when they may well have a significant affect on our lives, just like or even as much as the candidate's policies. Certainly when it comes down to it, Obama and Clinton mostly agree on policy, after all.

That said, that's not going to make me vote for Hillary, at least not in the primary, when I have some serious misgivings about her. It does mean that if I felt about the same about her and Obama, I probably would chose on gender though, and if a woman I liked was running, I would be all the more excited about that.

[John]

Thermofusion, I'm not gonna get into it with you, because it's clear you get really heated about the whole damn thing and I don't really care to help you out on that card. But to address your parting shot, just because it's grievously misinformed: race and gender aren't "skin color" and "what's between a person's legs." Both are rather more complicated than that. Voting to address a grotesque power imbalance makes more sense to me than "choosing a candidate who best matches your values" or "who's best for the job," which is a fool's errand in a really distasteful shell game. They are all scoundrels, may they all rot in Hell; I'll be voting symbolically in this election and when there's no symbolic vote to be had I'm always gonna reserve the right to stay home.

Your mileage may vary, so enjoy getting sold out by the candidate who you thought really cared about the things you voted him/her/it into office for!

[elpollodiablo]

You old cynical bastard

[John]

  To support Clinton solely because she's a woman is equally ignorant as supporting Obama just because he's black. 

I don't think either of those would be "ignorant," because I don't think directly addressing the grotesque power imbalance in this country is a bad thing

Would you vote for condoleeza rice?

I would vote for Elizabeth fucking Bathory running on the Natural Law party ticket. Two hundred years of shitty men presidents is enough, give a woman a chance to fuck shit up.

[elpollodiablo]

Man if I would come up in here all chest out like "I'm voting for the woman cuz she's a woman" Dave and blucas and Andrew would have all vomited and shit their pants at once

[dieblucasdie]

OMG pollo you're so persecuted.

edit: actually homie, as I said above, I think that's a much better reason than the reasons you gave.

[dieblucasdie]

  To support Clinton solely because she's a woman is equally ignorant as supporting Obama just because he's black. 

I don't think either of those would be "ignorant," because I don't think directly addressing the grotesque power imbalance in this country is a bad thing

Would you vote for condoleeza rice?

I would vote for Elizabeth fucking Bathory running on the Natural Law party ticket. Two hundred years of shitty men presidents is enough, give a woman a chance to fuck shit up.

I would vote for Alan fucking Keyes.  Two hundred years of shitty white presidents is enough, let's give a person of color a chance to fuck shit up.

[John]

Man if I would come up in here all chest out like "I'm voting for the woman cuz she's a woman" Dave and blucas and Andrew would have all vomited and shit their pants at once

as I understand it they've formed a band and the live show builds to a head in exactly this fashion!

pollo you perceive every word I say as "coming in all chest out" but I think you're kinda bringin' old baggage to the table with that shit, I'm just shooting the breeze here

also it doesn't hurt that I totally rule

[DCDave]

I went to see Cahoutek last night and one dude, during the show, kept trying to make himself puke onto the band.  Like, from the audience.

It was bizarre.

[John]

I went to see Cahoutek last night and one dude, during the show, kept trying to make himself puke onto the band.  Like, from the audience.

It was bizarre awesome.

fixed

[Augo]

From http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/01/usnews/whispers/main3780215.shtml

Of course, not everyone was so quick to put aside the question of race. Atlanta native Mr. Burnt Toast, 76, summed up his support for Obama in two words. "He's black," he said, adding, "[Even] if he don't have a policy, I'm going to vote for him. He's my man."

and

Some like Ms. Burnt Toast, a 24-year-old black college student at Fort Valley State University, had come especially for Obama, arriving hours early for the 11 a.m. service. (Kelley summed up her support: "To be perfectly honest, because he's black and I'm black.") Most of the crowd was regular toastergoers.

Today I've learned that color matters!

[elpollodiablo]

Man if I would come up in here all chest out like "I'm voting for the woman cuz she's a woman" Dave and blucas and Andrew would have all vomited and shit their pants at once

as I understand it they've formed a band and the live show builds to a head in exactly this fashion!

pollo you perceive every word I say as "coming in all chest out" but I think you're kinda bringin' old baggage to the table with that shit, I'm just shooting the breeze here

also it doesn't hurt that I totally rule

Man I wasn't even ragging on you, I appreciate the realness being broughten occasionally

[John]

my bad man!

[melancolley]

Thermofusion, I'm not gonna get into it with you, because it's clear you get really heated about the whole damn thing and I don't really care to help you out on that card. But to address your parting shot, just because it's grievously misinformed: race and gender aren't "skin color" and "what's between a person's legs." Both are rather more complicated than that. Voting to address a grotesque power imbalance makes more sense to me than "choosing a candidate who best matches your values" or "who's best for the job," which is a fool's errand in a really distasteful shell game. They are all scoundrels, may they all rot in Hell; I'll be voting symbolically in this election and when there's no symbolic vote to be had I'm always gonna reserve the right to stay home.

Your mileage may vary, so enjoy getting sold out by the candidate who you thought really cared about the things you voted him/her/it into office for!

Are you arguing that the power imbalance between men and women is greater than that between black and white? I know politicians are all EVIL FUCKS, but if symbolism is the order of the day, at least there's Condi and Pelosi. I don't want to trivialise the American feminist cause (especially as I know so little about it), but as abhorrent as sexism may be, it does not seem as urgent to me as black people having greater poverty, unemployment, jail rates etc.

btw, I was previously of the 'vote on merit' persuasion, forgetting that there is no merit in any of these EVIL FUCKS.  Thanks for reminding me.

[dieblucasdie]

There is no gold medal in the Oppression Olympics, despite what gender v. race arguments on the internet would have you believe.