Super Tuesday 2! Election primary 08

[dieblucasdie]

I will make two points here:

1)  Supporters on both sides here are supporting who they view as the lesser-of-two-evils.  Everyone's made that pretty clear.  It's bullshit when pollo tries to claim all the Obama supporters are starry-eyed suckers, and it's bullshit when Dave tries to claim that pollo wants to bomb and torture every brown person in the world because he voted for Clinton.

2)  It's really unsurprising that Obama felt the need to slip in the Israel-supporting comment, giving that he was responding specifically to charges of anti-semitism.

[Good Intentions]

Because of course nothing ill has ever arrised in confusing support for Israel as support for jewry.

Especially military support.

[hannah]

I would just like to say the fact that the National Review's Jonah Goldberg thought the speech had "some serious logical, philosophical, and political flaws" is evidence that is worth engaging with, whether that engagement is celebration, critique, or dismissal. Shit-head conservatives are taking it seriously, if only to dismantle it. Of course Obama is "disingenuous," GI; I second (and third and fourth...) the points Chris makes above. And although I am far more pro-Wright than I will ever be a Zionist, that speech was overwhelmingly remarkable -- in its sophistication and subtlety, it was unlike most any speech made by a prominent American politician in God-knows-when. Yes, some of that sophistication is sophistry and some of that subtlety is insincerity or deliberate ambiguity, but I'd take all of it any day over Bush's slimy "The check's in the mail" -- and most of it on its own terms, too.

[dieblucasdie]

Did you see Bush's comments yesterday about how OPEC affects the price of oil?  "You'll have to ask the experts, I'm just a simple president."

I shit you not.

[Tom]

as voters, we should hold our candidates' - by which I mean HRC's and Obama's - feet to the fire as hard if not harder than those whom we dislike. 

is it fair to say that all Obama's supporters are simply "starry-eyed"?  of course not.  but let's face it: his record is thin (I'm not saying this is in all circumstances a bad thing - but it is undeniable), and, as inspiring and at times useful as his speeches are, speeches don't solve problems; they just make us feel better about them. 

at the same time, is it fair to say HRC supporters want to bomb all "brown people"?  well no, obviously not.  she does, however, have to own up to the fact that she's made some serious errors in judgment (the war, NAFTA, etc.), and she should stop hiding behind "well I voted for the war but disagree with how it was conducted"; that's a cop out and it should be labeled as such.  in hindsight, her vote - the vote for war - however you want to spin it, was a mistake.

certainly, for Democrats, this is a choice between the lesser of two evils.  but whichever candidate one might choose, absolving that candidate of guilt and/or criticism while focusing all negative energy and attention on the other does not accomplish anything, other than to provide fodder for cable television.  I'd rather see Democrats spending more time picking their choice over with fine-tooth comb to make sure he or she is acceptable, than to simply please themselves by attacking the ills of their opponent.

[C of heartbreak]

Eh, I don't even know about the lesser of two evil things. I mean to be honest, lately I've kinda soured on Obama and turned on to Hillary a little, though I was pretty turned-off to her before. But despite their problems, I'd say either one would be the best democratic candidate, both in terms of electability and as a politician, since... anyone in my lifetime, probably.

[ellaguru]

Yeah, I was gonna say it's a pretty respectable field, all told.

[Good Intentions]

In pollo's defense, the only time he went after Obama's supporters rather than the man himself was against that subset of whingers among them who go on about how they'd rather not vote than vote for Clinton, and that is a group which requires firm derision at every point.

[Tom]

Eh, I don't even know about the lesser of two evil things.

sorry, I guess I should have said that for me, it's the lesser of two evils   

[Andrew_TSKS]

Did you see Bush's comments yesterday about how OPEC affects the price of oil?  "You'll have to ask the experts, I'm just a simple president."

I shit you not.

hah, he also told soldiers in afghanistan that he envies their "fantastic experience", and that what they're doing is "romantic".

"I must say, I'm a little envious," Bush said. "If I were slightly younger and not employed here, I think it would be a fantastic experience to be on the front lines of helping this young democracy succeed."

"It must be exciting for you ... in some ways romantic, in some ways, you know, confronting danger. You're really making history, and thanks," Bush said.

reuters

i'm not even going to attempt to discuss the obama speech.

[elpollodiablo]

Because it's too breathtaking, or what?

[Wally]

It's kinda sad that when Obama wins the nomination, the heavens will open up and the love basked upon him by his followers will lift him high up into the sky and to his rightful place.

[FreddyKnuckles]

in re Obama's supporters not being starry eyed etc

Here’s how a 20-year-old woman in Seattle described that Obama feeling: “When he was talking about hope, it actually almost made me cry. Like it really made sense, like, for the first, like, whoa …"

in re wally's last post: Google "Obama Messiah"

[Thermofusion]

naggers?

[Andrew_TSKS]

Because it's too breathtaking, or what?

no, because i think it's awesome and don't want to deal with you being a douchebag about it any more than you already have. but i guess i shouldn't have even mentioned it at all.

naggers?

huh?

[Tom]

in re Obama's supporters not being starry eyed etc

Here’s how a 20-year-old woman in Seattle described that Obama feeling: “When he was talking about hope, it actually almost made me cry. Like it really made sense, like, for the first, like, whoa …"

no one's saying that some people aren't - but to lump the millions of Obama supporters into that camp is silly...

[Andrew_TSKS]

the whole thing is silly. i really don't see what beef a liberal person should have with the speech. i just don't see it. the conservatives, ok whatever. but liberals?

[Tom]

the whole thing is silly. i really don't see what beef a liberal person should have with the speech. i just don't see it. the conservatives, ok whatever. but liberals?

I'm most definantly a liberal and I have no problem with the contents of the speech whatsoever.  I do think, though, that saying (not an exact quote) "breaking ties with my pastor is no less difficult than breaking ties with my grandmother" is not, exactly, spot on, ya know?  (I'm not trying to give him undue shit; I just don't want us to be lulled into a false sense of security - he's still a politician.)

[ellaguru]

naggers?

huh?

Thermo was responding to a murked comment.

[elpollodiablo]

Because it's too breathtaking, or what?

no, because i think it's awesome and don't want to deal with you being a douchebag about it any more than you already have. but i guess i shouldn't have even mentioned it at all.

naggers?

huh?

Hey Andrew: fuck you, buddy. If you can't endure a little criticism of the Big O, you might as well go hide in a closet, plug your ears and cover your eyes for the next year.

[jebreject]

I think Miles just said that in his vision of the future, Obama is president.

[FreddyKnuckles]

meanwhile conservatives cackle at the mounting division among democrats and plan to continue voting for Hillary in primaries like they did in Ohio and Texas.

[hannah]

go suck on a cackle

[elpollodiablo]

I think Miles just said that in his vision of the future, Obama is president.

Most definitely. Anyone who's been following the primary would reach the same conclusion, I think. As I said many weeks ago, I think it's time for HC to pack it in so we can tighten the ranks.

[elpollodiablo]

"Tightening the ranks" does not necessarily include putting our fingers in our ears and going LALALALALALALALA whenever someone has something even vaguely negative to say about our candidate, however