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Lock my bike!
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Topic: Lock my bike! (Read 10710 times)
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Babar
Registered user
Posts: 3305
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #75 on:
Jun 21, 2008, 11:02:09 PM »
Quote from: Good Intentions on Jun 21, 2008, 06:34:59 AM
That was... pretty much from left field, Babar. Maybe it just feels that way to me since every country I've been in has had 18 as the legal drinking age.
wow, i didn't know it was so common. iceland and ukraine are the only countries in europe that have a higher age. but nz peeps can drive at age 15, i'm pretty sure that's not very common, and it's a bit relevant in this discussion. i'm all for bikes, anyway. just fixed mine in may and i have been using a whole lot since. but when i'm driving i hate when bicyclist are on the road. use the freaking sidewalk! there's almost no one there! that's what i always do.
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coldforge
Registered user
Posts: 11924
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #76 on:
Jun 21, 2008, 11:14:04 PM »
Quote from: Babar on Jun 21, 2008, 11:02:09 PM
but when i'm driving i hate when bicyclist are on the road. use the freaking sidewalk! there's almost no one there! that's what i always do.
I'm going to withhold judgment for now and presume that Iceland has very, very different transit customs and regulations from my own country. Because if you were American, I would be fucking boggled.
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Babar
Registered user
Posts: 3305
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #77 on:
Jun 22, 2008, 12:54:54 AM »
Quote from: coldforge on Jun 21, 2008, 11:14:04 PM
Quote from: Babar on Jun 21, 2008, 11:02:09 PM
but when i'm driving i hate when bicyclist are on the road. use the freaking sidewalk! there's almost no one there! that's what i always do.
I'm going to withhold judgment for now and presume that Iceland has very, very different transit customs and regulations from my own country. Because if you were American, I would be fucking boggled.
probably true. there are no bike lanes anywhere. well, i think i've seen two in all of reykjavík and where i live in the centre the roads are really really narrow, so if there's a bike on one lane, a car on that same lane has to sway a little on the opposite lane to go ahead of the bike and that creates danger and it's also just annoying. the sidewalks are never swarmed with people so there's no problem riding there and if i see a big group of people ahead i just sway on the road to get passed them, if there are no cars, or go on the opposite sidewalk or something. i also sometimes ride the bike on the road on the
opposite
lane, so when i see a car ahead i can move over to the sidewalk. when i'm riding my bike i pretty much just move around the whole street as i see fit to cause the least irritation to pedestrians and drivers.
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guanajuato
Registered user
Posts: 1787
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #78 on:
Jun 22, 2008, 01:39:19 AM »
what about skateboarders? even bicyclists torment those mfuckers
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clare
Registered user
Posts: 5192
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #79 on:
Jun 22, 2008, 04:36:38 AM »
Quote from: YojimboMonkey on Jun 12, 2008, 04:49:11 PM
Mine doesn't have the growth on its butt though
It should Jim! I have one of these for the 7 year old - a tag-along bike so we can ride places that are too far for him to go on his own, plus his road sense sucks.
I use a U lock with a cable to lock the whole contraption up - using the U lock like a huge padlock to secure the cable to the bike and something solid...
The whole cyclist vs driver argument wages pretty much constantly here since they put dedicated bike lanes on the roads. The cyclists dislike the bits where the lanes jsut end, or they cross over on/off ramps. The drivers hate them 'cos they legitmise cyclists' place on the road. Plus the bus service has jsut started putting bike-carrying racks on the fronts of buses and if you have a bike you can ride for free. We're jsut a crappy version of Boulder here!
«
Last Edit: Jun 22, 2008, 04:43:44 AM by clare
»
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santaclaustral
Registered user
Posts: 400
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #80 on:
Jun 22, 2008, 07:00:07 AM »
I've gotta say that, for all the insanity of drivers in this city, I've never seen any of them display any animosity towards cyclists of the "cyclists have no right to be on the road" variety.
I am tempted to say that this is because the city's drivers believe that *nobody* else (not other drivers, cyclists, pedestrians, or traffic lights) has a right to be on the road, so there's no special resentment of cyclists. But I think it's just because cycling is really common here. Drivers most likely have cyclists in their immediate circle of family and friends... and I think it is probably harder to get aggressively hostile towards a demographic that visibly includes little kids and great-grandmothers.
I still cycle on the pavement as much as I can, though.
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Andrew_TSKS
Registered user
Posts: 39426
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #81 on:
Jun 22, 2008, 01:05:48 PM »
Quote from: Babar on Jun 22, 2008, 12:54:54 AM
Quote from: coldforge on Jun 21, 2008, 11:14:04 PM
Quote from: Babar on Jun 21, 2008, 11:02:09 PM
but when i'm driving i hate when bicyclist are on the road. use the freaking sidewalk! there's almost no one there! that's what i always do.
I'm going to withhold judgment for now and presume that Iceland has very, very different transit customs and regulations from my own country. Because if you were American, I would be fucking boggled.
probably true. there are no bike lanes anywhere. well, i think i've seen two in all of reykjavík and where i live in the centre the roads are really really narrow, so if there's a bike on one lane, a car on that same lane has to sway a little on the opposite lane to go ahead of the bike and that creates danger and it's also just annoying. the sidewalks are never swarmed with people so there's no problem riding there and if i see a big group of people ahead i just sway on the road to get passed them, if there are no cars, or go on the opposite sidewalk or something.
check it out--in the city where coldforge lives, there are roughly 20 times as many inhabitants as there are in your ENTIRE COUNTRY. so that may be why you're used to empty sidewalks and he's used to packed-full sidewalks.
also, the narrow roads you describe, all old-european-city style, are nonexistent in the united states. and especially in new york city, where city streets are often 6 to 8 lanes wide.
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ieatrats
Registered user
Posts: 823
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #82 on:
Jun 22, 2008, 05:09:11 PM »
Quote from: guanajuato on Jun 22, 2008, 01:39:19 AM
what about skateboarders? even bicyclists torment those mfuckers
Skateboarders obviously have no right to the road, or rollerskaters. Not to get all skateboarding is a crime, but neither of these are vehicles in the sense that they can be safely stopped or steered in any reliable or predictable way
Quote from: elpollodiablo on Jun 21, 2008, 05:57:49 PM
Obviously this entire discussion's been informed by the dominant mode of transportation of the speaker
This is probably the most important statement in this whole discussion. I've had a backburner project to write a long essay on what traffic rules can/should be flaunted by cyclists
where safely possible
and
because it's in the interests of both the cyclist and driver
. But this will be much informed by my own (safe and pragmatic, not to mention skilled) experience as a bicyclist and all of my prejudices e.g. that I have never driven a car (a relative rarity in North America in my mid-30s I think) so I think it's better to avoid getting uppity about it.
I think it's because I'm one of those Groucho wouldn't want to be in any club that would have me types, but ever since I've used a bicycle as a way of going, it's been clear to me that while there are a lot of things stacked against cyclists, drivers and cyclists are both at fault a lot of the time, and in many cases, they end up doing dumb/dangerous/irritating stuff because of the infrastructure they share.
Here's some stuff I generally do:
- treat my bike like a vehicle, including riding in a straight line at a predictable speed, signaling turns, taking lanes, using turning lanes, frequently using my "rearview" (looking over my shoulder all the time, even if I'm not turning or something). I let bicylists crossing my path go just like I would a car unless they're going so slow I can safely cross their path long before they reach my crossing point, just as I would a car.
- always ride on the right hand side of the road and pass on the left in moving traffic. This includes passing bicyclists, and pedestrians in multi-user paths. Announce your intention if necessary e.g. yelling "on your left." Bells have unpredictable results, and I only have one on my mountain bike for trails, where it's often impossible to see if someone's coming or if someone is stopped down and around a drop/turn/whatever
- make eye contact with other road users, always. Don't assume they saw you because they looked your way, and if you can't be sure, assume you're invisible.
- in fact, always assume you're invisible until you have strong reason to believe otherwise
- at stops without lights, wait your turn (it's first there, first to go, in order of arrival in North America everywhere I think, alternating directions e.g. one northbound, one westbound, one northbound, and so on), and if someone tries to jump the line, don't let them, get in front of them if they're behind you, anticipate them jumping if they're crossing you.
- never ever ride in the blind spot of a vehicle; either stay behind their bumper or get in front of them and stay on their headlight and don't give them space to box you in
- don't trackstand at stops. The world is not a game of footdown, and you look like you're either going or about to go, which confuses and pisses off drivers and cyclists alike
- never ride close enough to cars to get doored - ride 5 feet away from parked vehicles and keep an eye for heads in them, lights, wheels turned out. Not to blame the victim, but I rode in a city with mostly wide streets for a long time, and people warned me that in Philly I'd have to change my ways. I didn't, because the blocks are so short that no one can ever be behind me long enough to get pissed. The odd time there's a XYY chromosome type on my ass, I creep in an let them by just to be rid of them, or more often, speed up a little, then pull over at the next stop and let them by.
- look like I know what I'm doing. I wear a helmet, my wheels don't wobble, there's nothing hanging off my bike, my fenders don't drag on my tires, my brakes are connected, nothing sticks, nothing is loose, my bike doesn't make funny noises, I have a white light on the front and a red on the back. If you can't put in enough effort to do this, you're one of those bad cyclists. If you have ever used your phone while riding your bike, you're doing it wrong.
- in cities where the bike lanes are more or less in places that are reasonably placed (e.g. Philly), use them to make a point of it. In places where they're thoughtlessly constructed and actually force you to break laws using them (such as the ones that go against the flow of traffic, as many do in Montreal), don't use them to make a point of it
- car drivers are not your enemy, and bike riders are not your friends. Going is not a social club or an ideological battleground. The exception to this is always nodding at cyclists biking in non-bike places, basically road riding in non-urban areas - we're all brothers and sisters like that. Likewise, if you see any cyclist stopped who's obviously not resting, ask something like "you have everything you need?" This is especially true for people who look like they're not really cyclists - the other day I stopped to help a kid whose brake was locked on his hoopdie ass bike, and I got the cable loosened and the brake working. Maybe that kid will get inspired or his parent will, who knows.
Here's one thing that I think they're considering allowing in California that I generally advocate for those who can do it "right": At large intersections with lots of traffic and a light, especially where there's multiple lanes e.g. turning and straight ahead lanes, if there's a lull and you can safely get across (e.g. there are no cars/bikes coming at all) while your way is still red, always do it. The justification is that if you're correctly taking your space and riding far enough away from parked cars and/or taxi/bus lanes that are in use, you're actually doing everyone a favor because you will be slower off the start then cars, and people doing last minute dumb shit like turning right off the straight only lane or trying to get into the turn lane, they're not paying any attention to you and may well just bonk you, possibly into the path of another car trying to dodge them. This is kind of complex, and I don't think I can recommend it. Say, in the counties on road rides here, on roads where there's a light and complex traffic patterns, I anticipate the 2 second delay between crossing traffic and the beginning of the left-turn signal going green. This is especially important when you're riding in snow or rain.
The main goal of all of that: being way out of the way where there are already going to be bottlenecks and where being on a bike will make the bottleneck worse. I've done this in front of city and state police without them batting an eyelash, and I've never knowingly gotten a dirty look or a honk from a driver doing this.
The main goal of this whole post: confidence inspires confidence, and respect inspires respect.
God, did I just write all that? Guess who doesn't want to be packing right now.
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G.C.R
Registered user
Posts: 6219
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #83 on:
Jun 22, 2008, 05:19:43 PM »
Quote from: Andrew_TSKS on Jun 22, 2008, 01:05:48 PM
Quote from: Babar on Jun 22, 2008, 12:54:54 AM
Quote from: coldforge on Jun 21, 2008, 11:14:04 PM
Quote from: Babar on Jun 21, 2008, 11:02:09 PM
but when i'm driving i hate when bicyclist are on the road. use the freaking sidewalk! there's almost no one there! that's what i always do.
I'm going to withhold judgment for now and presume that Iceland has very, very different transit customs and regulations from my own country. Because if you were American, I would be fucking boggled.
probably true. there are no bike lanes anywhere. well, i think i've seen two in all of reykjavík and where i live in the centre the roads are really really narrow, so if there's a bike on one lane, a car on that same lane has to sway a little on the opposite lane to go ahead of the bike and that creates danger and it's also just annoying. the sidewalks are never swarmed with people so there's no problem riding there and if i see a big group of people ahead i just sway on the road to get passed them, if there are no cars, or go on the opposite sidewalk or something.
check it out--in the city where coldforge lives, there are roughly 20 times as many inhabitants as there are in your ENTIRE COUNTRY. so that may be why you're used to empty sidewalks and he's used to packed-full sidewalks.
also, the narrow roads you describe, all old-european-city style, are nonexistent in the united states. and especially in new york city, where city streets are often 6 to 8 lanes wide.
Truth, my friend when I was 14 was from Iceland, and she used to tell me how when she was about 12 they used to get in the car in big groups and drive up and down one way streets whatever way, in the CBD of a Sunday night. If that sort of thing can go on and no one gets killed, or even gets a wee telling off,I reckon riding bikes on the footpath is prolly going to be ok.
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jebreject
Registered user
Posts: 27071
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #84 on:
Jun 22, 2008, 05:24:24 PM »
ieatrats, that's awesome. Thank you. I do gotta say, though, that in my experience
Quote from: ieatrats on Jun 22, 2008, 05:09:11 PM
never ride close enough to cars to get doored - ride 5 feet away from parked vehicles
is very rarely possible. Especially in a place like downtown Milwaukee, if there's traffic, there's no way in hell you're going to be able to stay 5 feet away from parked cars.
But yeah, that's all a lot of really great advice.
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YojimboMonkey
Registered user
Posts: 12034
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #85 on:
Jun 22, 2008, 05:50:34 PM »
ieatrats, that was an excellent post, and while I might quibble with one or two little points overall I think you hit it. Here is how I sum up my own rule of thumb for riding: I do my best to not interfere with anybody else's right of way (while asserting my own). That's pretty much it. So while I engage in some of the behaviors that piss off motorists, like rolling through the occasional four-way stop, or jumping the light order on a 6-way intersection by using crosswalks, I do so in a way that does not interfere with any drivers or pedestrians.
Quote from: ieatrats on Jun 22, 2008, 05:09:11 PM
- make eye contact with other road users, always. Don't assume they saw you because they looked your way, and if you can't be sure, assume you're invisible.
- in fact, always assume you're invisible until you have strong reason to believe otherwise
An excellent point, especially with someone who is trying to turn onto a busy street from a side street, you have to look them straight in the eye and make sure they know you're there, and even then be ready to avoid if they decide to go anyway, which they sometimes do.
Quote from: ieatrats on Jun 22, 2008, 05:09:11 PM
- at stops without lights, wait your turn (it's first there, first to go, in order of arrival in North America everywhere I think, alternating directions e.g. one northbound, one westbound, one northbound, and so on), and if someone tries to jump the line, don't let them, get in front of them if they're behind you, anticipate them jumping if they're crossing you.
Here's where I talk about not interfering with someone's right of way. At a 4-way stop, if I'm able, I'll time my arrival at the intersection to coincide with the "turn" of a car going the same way I am, so I "borrow" that car's right-of-way to cross the intersection (or as I call it, use that car as a lead blocker). If I'm not able, I slow down or stop and go on my "turn." I see plenty of bikes that just blow right through intersections and it frustrates me too. But I also rarely see a driver come to a complete stop at a stop sign unless there's a line of cars waiting there or something else to force the driver to stop. In fact, many drivers will not even slow to a speed slower than that of a bicycle before blowing through the stop.
Quote from: ieatrats on Jun 22, 2008, 05:09:11 PM
- never ever ride in the blind spot of a vehicle; either stay behind their bumper or get in front of them and stay on their headlight and don't give them space to box you in
I need to get better at this, especially with buses.
Quote from: ieatrats on Jun 22, 2008, 05:09:11 PM
- don't trackstand at stops. The world is not a game of footdown, and you look like you're either going or about to go, which confuses and pisses off drivers and cyclists alike
I can see what you're saying here, though I never thought about it before. Noted.
Quote from: ieatrats on Jun 22, 2008, 05:09:11 PM
- never ride close enough to cars to get doored - ride 5 feet away from parked vehicles and keep an eye for heads in them, lights, wheels turned out.
People get doored all the time, and as I mentioned, a man was recently killed here in Chicago when a door knocked him into traffic. You have to watch out for this stuff. I'm not saying blame the victim either, 'cause if you get doored it's the fault of the person opening the door, but so many drivers just don't think about it that you HAVE to watch out for yourself.
Quote from: ieatrats on Jun 22, 2008, 05:09:11 PM
- look like I know what I'm doing. I wear a helmet, my wheels don't wobble, there's nothing hanging off my bike, my fenders don't drag on my tires, my brakes are connected, nothing sticks, nothing is loose, my bike doesn't make funny noises, I have a white light on the front and a red on the back. If you can't put in enough effort to do this, you're one of those bad cyclists. If you have ever used your phone while riding your bike, you're doing it wrong.
Hah, I answered my phone while on my bike once recently and got called a schmuck by some guy (I was trying to get safely off the path but couldn't right away, and when the guy called me a schmuck I totally agreed. I was pretty ashamed of myself). I see a lot of people riding some pretty crappy bikes all the time but I guess I never really thought "that person shouldn't be on the road." You bike Nazi.
Quote from: ieatrats on Jun 22, 2008, 05:09:11 PM
Here's one thing that I think they're considering allowing in California that I generally advocate for those who can do it "right": At large intersections with lots of traffic and a light, especially where there's multiple lanes e.g. turning and straight ahead lanes, if there's a lull and you can safely get across (e.g. there are no cars/bikes coming at all) while your way is still red, always do it.
The problem is deciding who does it right I guess. But for me again, it all comes down to making sure you don't interfere with someone else's right-of-way. Like at the six-way intersections I mentioned--I ride down diagonal streets a lot, and at most of the 6-way intersections in town the green light progresses counter-clockwise (that is, if the light turns red as I approach the light heading southeast, the green light will then go to the east/west street, and then the north/south street, before returning to the southeast/northwest diagnonal). So I will slow to a near-stop, and then--WITHOUT interfering with any pedestrians, borrow the crosswalk's right of way to cross the street to my left while the east/west street has the right-of-way so that I end up on the east side of the north/south street. Then when the north/south street has the green light, I use the crosswalks to return to the southeast-bound lane on the diagonal street.
Or if I can't do that, like you said, anticipating the light and getting a little jump on it. Though the problem with that in Chicago is that there are always motorists who zoom through the intersection after their light has gone red. Which of course makes the people waiting to turn left have to wait even longer to clear the intersection. Which makes major intersections a very dangerous place for a cyclist who's just trying to make it across in one piece. Which, again, makes me pissed off every time I hear a motorist bitching about how cyclists don't follow the rules.
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ieatrats
Registered user
Posts: 823
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #86 on:
Jun 22, 2008, 05:53:37 PM »
No dis, and I can't truly say it about places I haven't ridden myself, but everyone thinks it's not true where they are. Philly has narrow ass streets to the degree that on some you can't drive a normal width car down them without getting your wheels on the sidewalk. And there's lots of places here I wouldn't do it - I avoid any streets with trolley tracks unless they're wide enough or actually have trolley running (it's high larious to pass a trolley in West Philly and have a half a dozen car-free blocks because they're all stuck behind a train). I've never ridden in Toronto, but I know I would never ride on College or Queen or King, period, because you'd have to ride on the tracks to do what I say. Never ridden in NYC, but from what I've seen, NYC seems to be like Philly except moreso.
It's all about commitment. I ride in such a way that says you're damn right I'm here, and you can't possibly not see me, and I think that's the most important thing. 99% of the time or more, people are reasonable and no one's going to hassle you, might even commend you unconsciously, and the more people see people riding like that, the less they will. The odd hassler, I just try and let them get out of my life as quickly as possible, knowing that one day they will run over their toddler in their driveway, their SO will get a restraining order against them, they'll drive off a cliff texting, etc or that minimally their life must be so horrible for them to behave like such an asshole that I extend empathy for a moment. While I will them to get herpes.
The funny thing about biking is that there are so many reasons people are culturally indoctrinated to believe bikes are something different from other road vehicles (e.g. toys, something for kids, something just for exercise, etc), not to mention the phenomenon of sub- and exurbs or cities like Detroit (and probably Milwaukee) that are basically built for cars that even if you ride your bike everywhere, every day, if you don't think specifically about hey, what should I do and how should I be doing it, you won't learn good habits like you would in a car. Someone taught you how to drive, and so many things are so intuitively dangerous (e.g. not stopping at lights, not looking before changing lanes etc) that you're basically forced to behave in a way that's more or less safe as a matter of basic survival so much of the time. Not so with bikes, unfortunately.
And that's a bummer. I mean, my brother's wife and my best friend decided they want bikes, and as much as I wanted to get all psyched and build bikes for them and be cheerleaders for them, neither of them are the type to get invested, so I didn't waste my energy. I'm overly serious like that.
If anyone really wants to drink some kool aid, look up archives of posts and articles by Jobst Brandt (more of a technical nature, but there's lots of stuff about how to ride too), and read Effective Cycling by John Forster, in print for like 35 years from MIT.
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ieatrats
Registered user
Posts: 823
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #87 on:
Jun 22, 2008, 06:03:46 PM »
Quote from: YojimboMonkey on Jun 22, 2008, 05:50:34 PM
Here is how I sum up my own rule of thumb for riding: I do my best to not interfere with anybody else's right of way (while asserting my own). That's pretty much it.
Brevity is not my strong suit, and I think you summed it up with that pretty completely.
Re: making eye contact, I'd like to emphasize that some more, because I actually started doing it after some reading in cognitive science or something from a study about behavior basically saying that people have a hard time doing something that can harm another person if they've made contact with them. It's the same reason military training emphasizes basic dehumanization of oneself and the enemy, people can't help recognizing basic humanity one on one and face to face.
Re: yr whole 4/6 way thing, I totally know what you mean, and I "borrow" people's going and pretend I'm a pedestrian in cases like that too. Another funny thing about bikes is that because you are inherently different than other road users, sometimes it's strongly to your advantage to code-switch like that. As you say though, it's a matter of doing it "right" and that's why it might be best to develop ones own code thoughtfully, but also be reactive and flexible to situations as they arrive.
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Doctor Bob
Registered user
Posts: 2882
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #88 on:
Jun 22, 2008, 07:08:43 PM »
ieatrats- well said. I've never fully articulated my riding philosophy before, but it'd be remarkably similar to yours. So, um, thanks for saving me the hassle!
One other thing worth mentioning - more related to posts before yours - is the value of having an explicit modal hierarchy, at least in town centres. In Amsterdam, it goes canal - bike - pedestrian - etc. all the way down to the car at the bottom. Different places would have different priorities, but knowing the order determines everything from road space allocation, to signal sequences, to right of way, even to funding. Or maybe that's just me being all dreamy and Eurocentric again...
One thing all road users should bear in mind- rights and responsibilities go hand in hand. (I'll stop now before this turns into a lecture!)
PS I've been city riding for over 15 years and also don't drive, which is unusual enough here in Dublin too. (And I work as a transport planner for a Govt agency for the day job, so this thread is a sort of busman's holiday.)
(PPS I had a look at your blog a few weeks ago- nice.)
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YojimboMonkey
Registered user
Posts: 12034
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #89 on:
Jun 23, 2008, 09:55:53 AM »
More
angry! GRRR!!!
bike vs. car debate in
this post on SFist
about a proposed law to allow cyclists to legally treat stop lights as if they were stop signs (i.e., proceed through the intersection after stopping and making sure it's safe to do so).
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Almanzo
Registered user
Posts: 1109
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #90 on:
Jun 23, 2008, 02:27:44 PM »
Quote from: YojimboMonkey on Jun 23, 2008, 09:55:53 AM
More
angry! GRRR!!!
bike vs. car debate in
this post on SFist
about a proposed law to allow cyclists to legally treat stop lights as if they were stop signs (i.e., proceed through the intersection after stopping and making sure it's safe to do so).
That's not already the law? I've literally never seen a cyclist stop for a stop sign in my entire life.
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YojimboMonkey
Registered user
Posts: 12034
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #91 on:
Jun 23, 2008, 02:30:24 PM »
Quote from: YojimboMonkey on Jun 22, 2008, 05:50:34 PM
I see plenty of bikes that just blow right through intersections and it frustrates me too. But I also rarely see a driver come to a complete stop at a stop sign unless there's a line of cars waiting there or something else to force the driver to stop. In fact, many drivers will not even slow to a speed slower than that of a bicycle before blowing through the stop.
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YojimboMonkey
Registered user
Posts: 12034
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #92 on:
Jun 23, 2008, 02:37:02 PM »
Also, I stopped at a stop sign when running to the store about an hour ago. I wasn't going to--the pickup truck opposite me at the stop sign didn't have a turn signal on, so I assumed he was going straight through, but when he screeched out into the intersection right across my path, I stopped pretty damn quick.
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Doctor Bob
Registered user
Posts: 2882
Re: Lock my bike!
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Reply #93 on:
Jun 23, 2008, 02:39:19 PM »
Doesn't seem like an unreasonable proposal. I noted particularly the comment from one cyclist that one of his junctions only goes green when a car triggers the sensor- I have a couple of those too.
I read recently that Kensington Borough in London is to permit cycling the wrong way down a one-way street. Fine in principle- the only concern I'd have is the decision to do it without road markings. Wait and see.
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/news/article4061323.ece
Pretty relevant to this discussion and the general topic of mixed traffic in towns and cities is the work of Hans Monderman. He introduced shared space in Drachten and other places with interesting results.
Hans Monderman videos.
Shared space in Drachten, NL.
My only reservation about shared space - and it's a pretty big one - is the effect it has on blind people, for whom navigation becomes more difficult generally and often impossible.
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Almanzo
Registered user
Posts: 1109
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #94 on:
Jun 23, 2008, 02:42:13 PM »
Quote from: ieatrats on Jun 22, 2008, 05:09:11 PM
Quote from: guanajuato on Jun 22, 2008, 01:39:19 AM
what about skateboarders? even bicyclists torment those mfuckers
Skateboarders obviously have no right to the road, or rollerskaters. Not to get all skateboarding is a crime, but neither of these are vehicles in the sense that they can be safely stopped or steered in any reliable or predictable way
Quote from: elpollodiablo on Jun 21, 2008, 05:57:49 PM
Obviously this entire discussion's been informed by the dominant mode of transportation of the speaker
This is probably the most important statement in this whole discussion. I've had a backburner project to write a long essay on what traffic rules can/should be flaunted by cyclists
where safely possible
and
because it's in the interests of both the cyclist and driver
. But this will be much informed by my own (safe and pragmatic, not to mention skilled) experience as a bicyclist and all of my prejudices e.g. that I have never driven a car (a relative rarity in North America in my mid-30s I think) so I think it's better to avoid getting uppity about it.
I think it's because I'm one of those Groucho wouldn't want to be in any club that would have me types, but ever since I've used a bicycle as a way of going, it's been clear to me that while there are a lot of things stacked against cyclists, drivers and cyclists are both at fault a lot of the time, and in many cases, they end up doing dumb/dangerous/irritating stuff because of the infrastructure they share.
Here's some stuff I generally do:
- treat my bike like a vehicle, including riding in a straight line at a predictable speed, signaling turns, taking lanes, using turning lanes, frequently using my "rearview" (looking over my shoulder all the time, even if I'm not turning or something). I let bicylists crossing my path go just like I would a car unless they're going so slow I can safely cross their path long before they reach my crossing point, just as I would a car.
- always ride on the right hand side of the road and pass on the left in moving traffic. This includes passing bicyclists, and pedestrians in multi-user paths. Announce your intention if necessary e.g. yelling "on your left." Bells have unpredictable results, and I only have one on my mountain bike for trails, where it's often impossible to see if someone's coming or if someone is stopped down and around a drop/turn/whatever
- make eye contact with other road users, always. Don't assume they saw you because they looked your way, and if you can't be sure, assume you're invisible.
- in fact, always assume you're invisible until you have strong reason to believe otherwise
- at stops without lights, wait your turn (it's first there, first to go, in order of arrival in North America everywhere I think, alternating directions e.g. one northbound, one westbound, one northbound, and so on), and if someone tries to jump the line, don't let them, get in front of them if they're behind you, anticipate them jumping if they're crossing you.
- never ever ride in the blind spot of a vehicle; either stay behind their bumper or get in front of them and stay on their headlight and don't give them space to box you in
- don't trackstand at stops. The world is not a game of footdown, and you look like you're either going or about to go, which confuses and pisses off drivers and cyclists alike
- never ride close enough to cars to get doored - ride 5 feet away from parked vehicles and keep an eye for heads in them, lights, wheels turned out. Not to blame the victim, but I rode in a city with mostly wide streets for a long time, and people warned me that in Philly I'd have to change my ways. I didn't, because the blocks are so short that no one can ever be behind me long enough to get pissed. The odd time there's a XYY chromosome type on my ass, I creep in an let them by just to be rid of them, or more often, speed up a little, then pull over at the next stop and let them by.
- look like I know what I'm doing. I wear a helmet, my wheels don't wobble, there's nothing hanging off my bike, my fenders don't drag on my tires, my brakes are connected, nothing sticks, nothing is loose, my bike doesn't make funny noises, I have a white light on the front and a red on the back. If you can't put in enough effort to do this, you're one of those bad cyclists. If you have ever used your phone while riding your bike, you're doing it wrong.
- in cities where the bike lanes are more or less in places that are reasonably placed (e.g. Philly), use them to make a point of it. In places where they're thoughtlessly constructed and actually force you to break laws using them (such as the ones that go against the flow of traffic, as many do in Montreal), don't use them to make a point of it
- car drivers are not your enemy, and bike riders are not your friends. Going is not a social club or an ideological battleground. The exception to this is always nodding at cyclists biking in non-bike places, basically road riding in non-urban areas - we're all brothers and sisters like that. Likewise, if you see any cyclist stopped who's obviously not resting, ask something like "you have everything you need?" This is especially true for people who look like they're not really cyclists - the other day I stopped to help a kid whose brake was locked on his hoopdie ass bike, and I got the cable loosened and the brake working. Maybe that kid will get inspired or his parent will, who knows.
Here's one thing that I think they're considering allowing in California that I generally advocate for those who can do it "right": At large intersections with lots of traffic and a light, especially where there's multiple lanes e.g. turning and straight ahead lanes, if there's a lull and you can safely get across (e.g. there are no cars/bikes coming at all) while your way is still red, always do it. The justification is that if you're correctly taking your space and riding far enough away from parked cars and/or taxi/bus lanes that are in use, you're actually doing everyone a favor because you will be slower off the start then cars, and people doing last minute dumb shit like turning right off the straight only lane or trying to get into the turn lane, they're not paying any attention to you and may well just bonk you, possibly into the path of another car trying to dodge them. This is kind of complex, and I don't think I can recommend it. Say, in the counties on road rides here, on roads where there's a light and complex traffic patterns, I anticipate the 2 second delay between crossing traffic and the beginning of the left-turn signal going green. This is especially important when you're riding in snow or rain.
The main goal of all of that: being way out of the way where there are already going to be bottlenecks and where being on a bike will make the bottleneck worse. I've done this in front of city and state police without them batting an eyelash, and I've never knowingly gotten a dirty look or a honk from a driver doing this.
The main goal of this whole post: confidence inspires confidence, and respect inspires respect.
God, did I just write all that? Guess who doesn't want to be packing right now.
Wouldn't it be amazing if people could just ride bikes instead of rushing some sort of goddamned fraternity?
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Andrew_TSKS
Registered user
Posts: 39426
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #95 on:
Jun 23, 2008, 02:48:28 PM »
Quote from: Almanzo on Jun 23, 2008, 02:27:44 PM
Quote from: YojimboMonkey on Jun 23, 2008, 09:55:53 AM
More
angry! GRRR!!!
bike vs. car debate in
this post on SFist
about a proposed law to allow cyclists to legally treat stop lights as if they were stop signs (i.e., proceed through the intersection after stopping and making sure it's safe to do so).
That's not already the law? I've literally never seen a cyclist stop for a stop sign in my entire life.
you misunderstood the post. the law under discussion is one to allow bicyclists to treat stop lights like stop signs, not to treat stop signs like they're nonexistent.
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I just want to be myself and I want you to love me for who I am.
C of heartbreak
Registered user
Posts: 5285
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #96 on:
Jun 23, 2008, 11:40:00 PM »
As a bike rider I get my green traveler vindication by pushing cars around when I drive a bus.
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HOW WOULD I BE? WHAT WOULD I DO?
diesel_powered
Registered user
Posts: 19210
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #97 on:
Jun 24, 2008, 02:45:07 AM »
As a pedestrian, I get my green traveler vindication by busting caps in whoever hassles me on the sidewalk.
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YojimboMonkey
Registered user
Posts: 12034
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #98 on:
Jun 24, 2008, 08:17:51 AM »
Goddamn, everbody's armed and angry! Drivers wanna kill me with their cars, pedestrians wanna bust a cap. "Just like a cyclist, bringing a U-lock to a gun and car fight"
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ieatrats
Registered user
Posts: 823
Re: Lock my bike!
«
Reply #99 on:
Jun 24, 2008, 01:48:30 PM »
Quote from: Almanzo on Jun 23, 2008, 02:42:13 PM
Wouldn't it be amazing if people could just ride bikes instead of rushing some sort of goddamned fraternity?
That's exactly what I thought in Spain riding bikes on sidewalks full of people and waiting at stop lights not crossing even if there wasn't cars coming.
Re: your other comment, pay attention to cars at stop signs and count the number that come to a full stop. You can go all day without seeing a full stop. Maybe we can say at least some of those bicyclists are doing this. I am anyway.
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Fuck your Jetta.
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