Opera! (Not the Argento kind)

[bryanmckay]

I want to be more versed in Opera, but I don't have a clue where to start. I've seen a couple performances on DVD. Does anyone have any recommendations for either specific works, specific records, or DVD recordings? I'm really probably more interested in the latter because I think the stagecraft involved is really fascinating, but any suggestions will do!

[ellaguru]

The Met does these live simulcast thingies with their whole schedule, playing in your local movie theatre. They're pretty fun. They had little glitches with the sound a couple times last year, but just smallish ones), but much, much cheaper than hitting up a real opera. And the Met is a fine little company.

Madama Butterfly should be good, and the chick singing Thais (Renee Fleming) is only of my favourite singers ever, so I'm also looking forward to that one. She is fantastic.

They are on on Saturday afternoons, and they generally do an encore performance, so that makes like 20 opportunities to take in 10 operas at basically movie ticket prices over the year.

[alex]

I was just thinking earlier today that one of the things I missed most about living in Vienna, even though I did it only rarely (every couple of months) at the time, was occassionally thinking "oh, it'd be fun to go to the opera once again", checking the schedule of the Staatsoper to see when they'd have something on that wasn't Wagner, and then buy tickets for the standing area (at 2 €, so much cheaper than movie ticket prices) for that. 

But I wasn't ever able to get into operea outside of live performances - perhaps I should also keep an eye on this thread and check out a couple of things on dvd/opera, because I've never done that before. I never seem to be able to make it through a recording of a full opera, the only time I ever managed to do that was with a library copy of a recording of Alban Berg's Wozzeck.

[coldforge]

At the beginning of this year, for The Girl's birthday, we got really nice tickets to see Verdi's _MacBeth_ at the Met. It was great; huge sets, special effects, very powerful performances. As far as I'm concerned, one does not go to the opera for subtlety.

And I've actually just recently picked up several Von Karajan recordings of the Ring Cycle, which are quite good.* You know, for as fearsome as his reputation is, Wagner's quite listenable. His lieder, especially, are rather sympathetic, in fact.

* Though generally, I agree that if someone wants to have the worth of opera demonstrated to them, and is interested in leaping the hurdles that pretty much any 21st Century American would have in approaching it, they really should get the visual angle.

[ellaguru]

Man, I wish we could get deals like that here. I have the cheapest deal available at the local opera hut, it's like $40 a show and you have to subscribe to the whole 7-opera season to get that price. We ain't got no rush tickets and for sure no two euro tickets.

[Thermofusion]

* Though generally, I agree that if someone wants to have the worth of opera demonstrated to them, and is intereesting in leaping the hurdles that pretty much any 21st Century American would have in approaching it, they really should get the visual angle.

I have a lot to say on this topic but little interest to do so at the moment, but I wanted to chime in and say that what coldforge said is a great, crucial point. Opera's not for everyone, but I'd urge anyone unfamiliar with it as a medium to reserve judgment until after they attend an actual production. Listing to World of Opera can only take you so far (though bless the people who keep it on the air).

[bryanmckay]

To me the idea of listening to opera out of context seems weird, since it's all in the service of a greater context and meant to be staged. Thermo, do you have any particular operas you'd recommend I try and check out?

Ella, thank you so much for that link. The theatre in Boston is only a short ways away from my house, so I would be stupid to miss seeing at least one of these. La Damnation de Faust sounds awesome.

[iamnotthou]

Woo!  My type of thread  

On the subject of Wagner:  Personally I say boo to Wagner, some very recognizable stuff, and there's loads to be learned from him, but the way he uses motifs all over the place gets in the way of the artistic experience for me, it can turn sincere into cartoonish really quick.

Stuff that'd I'd say is a must listen is: (in a bastardized chronological order)

Monteverdi - Orfeo
Handel - Semele
Gluck - Orfeo
Mozart - The Magic Flute
          - Marriage of Figaro
          - Don Giovanni
Beethoven - Fidelio
Rossini - Barber of Seville
          - William Tell
Wagner - Tristan and Isolde
Verdi - La Traviata
        - Otello
        - Falstaff
        - Aida
Bizet - Carmen
Puccini - La Boheme
          - Turandot
          - Madame Butterfly
          - Gianni Schicchi

There's a lot of great modern stuff too, and modern realizations of classic operas (hit or miss) that are worth checking out, but I'd say all this stuff is a good place to start.  

[Thermofusion]

iamnotthou, those are some solid reccs.  The three Mozarts are essential. I'd personally skip Fidelio...the overture(s) is a very standard part of the rep but I feel the opera itself was forgettable (Beethoven couldn't be master at everything).  Co-sign on all the Verdi, to which I'd add La Forza del Destino, an overlooked gem.  Carmen is of course essential and ditto the Puccini. 

I'm not a huge fan of Wagner's opera but that's more about how exhausting it is to endure than any disrespect for the man.  Wagner's hyper-chromaticism and tonal boundary pushing in his operatic works was one of the seeds of modern music and from a music theory angle it's endlessly fascinating to analyse.  One of my comp teachers beat me over the head about this (I used to be very resistant to Wagner) until I finally saw the light.  But I was going through a minimalism phase at the time like a lot of young composers and I needed to get snapped out of it.  Wagner helped with that.

My fave German Romantic opera will always and forever be Salome and I think it should be near the top of anyone's listen-to list.  I'd even say tackle it ahead of Wagner...Strauss gives you that big, late Romantic Germanic Opera sound with the huge orchestration and boundary-pushing dissonance without the meandering phrasings and total existential exhaustion of Wagner.  Not to diss meandering phrasing (I like meandering phrasing!) but it's a bit much for n00bs.  Hell it's a bit much for me sometimes.  Do Salome, then do Der Rosenkavalier then tell me who's more listenable.

Modern Opera: Wozzeck is my starter point.  My mind's suddenly drawing a blank on about 80 years of opera, so we'll skip ahead to some recent contemporary stuff.  Ades' Powder Her Face kinda changed my life back in college and I think I repped for it in the classical thread.  Adams' Nixon in China is probably the most famous American opera by a living composer and has generated a couple of heavily programmed concert pieces.  For a total stretch of what opera means, Glass' Einstein on the Beach remains kind of a touchstone but his subsequent "operatic" stuff got progressively more conventional and boring.  Damn my brain is grinding but that's all that's leaping to mind right now.  More later!

[iamnotthou]

One of my comp teachers beat me over the head about this (I used to be very resistant to Wagner) until I finally saw the light.  But I was going through a minimalism phase at the time like a lot of young composers and I needed to get snapped out of it.  Wagner helped with that.

Haha, I'm actually in a bit of a minimalist phase myself right now, my comp prof has yet to recommend Wagner though.  S'pose I'll give him a second look.  I'm sure I'll run into him in the Chromatic Harmony and Analysis class I'm taking this semester.

[Good Intentions]

Well, I will be the one then that says that Wagner is indispensable. His stuff is the only opera that has managed to keep my attention as time goes on.

I grew up with classical music, lots of it, but never opera. My mother didn't like it, it didn't get played in the house, I never learnt to listen to it. But it took just 20 minutes with Wagner to realise what a tremendous, majestic mastery of music that man had.

cf is right, the man's lieder are quite something as well.

[Thermofusion]

One of my comp teachers beat me over the head about this (I used to be very resistant to Wagner) until I finally saw the light.  But I was going through a minimalism phase at the time like a lot of young composers and I needed to get snapped out of it.  Wagner helped with that.

Haha, I'm actually in a bit of a minimalist phase myself right now, my comp prof has yet to recommend Wagner though.  S'pose I'll give him a second look.  I'm sure I'll run into him in the Chromatic Harmony and Analysis class I'm taking this semester.

My first real composition teacher saw I was going down a Dark Path and gave me a stack of CDs as his prescribed minimalism antidote: La Mer, Bartok's Music for S, P & C and Complete String Quartets, Shostakovich Quartet no. 8, Stravinsky's Firebird Suite, Ives' Symphony no. 4 and one of the Wagner operas (don't remember which).  This was '99, I was 18 and this was my first exposure to all of these (very commonly known) pieces.  I remember a couple of the more rhythmic scherzos in a couple of the Bartok quartets being the first to really shake me lose, and then Firebird just brought me to a whole new place.  It took me several years to totally ditch minimalism altogether (and I still retain a perpetual motion fetish, which is the remnant of that era of my life which probably ain't ever going away) but those were the seeds and they were planted at just the right time to keep me from completing an altar to Philip Glass (shudder...though in Glass' defense his Violin Concerto is fucking awesome by anyone's standards). 

Since then I've gone through other phases -- aping Carter, aping Ligeti, aping Carter and Ligeti at the same time, went hard serial right after college and now kinda am a combination of all of the above with maybe a touch of later Adams thrown in. 

[iamnotthou]

My first real composition teacher saw I was going down a Dark Path and gave me a stack of CDs as his prescribed minimalism antidote: La Mer, Bartok's Music for S, P & C and Complete String Quartets, Shostakovich Quartet no. 8, Stravinsky's Firebird Suite, Ives' Symphony no. 4 and one of the Wagner operas (don't remember which).  This was '99, I was 18 and this was my first exposure to all of these (very commonly known) pieces.  I remember a couple of the more rhythmic scherzos in a couple of the Bartok quartets being the first to really shake me lose, and then Firebird just brought me to a whole new place.  It took me several years to totally ditch minimalism altogether (and I still retain a perpetual motion fetish, which is the remnant of that era of my life which probably ain't ever going away) but those were the seeds and they were planted at just the right time to keep me from completing an altar to Philip Glass (shudder...though in Glass' defense his Violin Concerto is fucking awesome by anyone's standards). 

Since then I've gone through other phases -- aping Carter, aping Ligeti, aping Carter and Ligeti at the same time, went hard serial right after college and now kinda am a combination of all of the above with maybe a touch of later Adams thrown in. 

I'm familiar with all those, 'cept the Shostokovich Quartet.  Great pieces.  I'll concede I'm not too into Glass, but I know the violin concerto you're talking about and I gotta give him props for that.  I'm more on the Part/Gorecki/Tavener side of minimalism.  I had a professor that said he met Glass once and remarked he was a bit egotistical, which I found rather funny.

[mountmccabe]

Well, I will be the one then that says that Wagner is indispensable. His stuff is the only opera that has managed to keep my attention as time goes on.

I grew up with classical music, lots of it, but never opera. My mother didn't like it, it didn't get played in the house, I never learnt to listen to it. But it took just 20 minutes with Wagner to realise what a tremendous, majestic mastery of music that man had.

cf is right, the man's lieder are quite something as well.

I'll second pretty much all of this, too.

Except that I was a little slower to fully accept Wagner.  The first opera I bought was one of his but it was The Flying Dutchman... which is pretty early so it isn't quite as rich as say Tannhauser, Lohengrin, etc.

Those two Wagner operas, Verdi's La Traviata and Otello and Mozart's Don Giovanni would probably be the five that hit me the most.

Barber's Vanessa has some great parts, as does Shostakovich's Lady MacBeth of Mtsensk but I haven't spent enough time with them.

[mountmccabe]

Also yay for this thread because it made me look up Arizona Opera's current season.  They're doing Don Giovanni in February.  WIN.

[coldforge]

Nixon in  china was mentioned in passing but it bears another one. I don't personally intend to outgrow minimalism.

[Thermofusion]

I didn't really "outgrow" minimalism per se: the problem was I embraced it at too early an age when I still had vast amounts of compositional tools to learn and was risking stunting my growth (I still had yet to study counterpoint, basic compositional form, late Romantic harmony, serialism, you name it)  You'll note that all of the seminal American minimalists developed their style after their studies (a lot of this happening in the 1970s when conservatories were pushing extremes of compositional technique in a unhealthily monolithic way) when they'd learned all the tools and could pick and choose which ones to use in their own music.  My problem was becoming a Reich/Glass devotee when I knew basically none of the tools and was eager to reject things I didn't even understand yet.

As for Adams, he's way up there in my list of favorite American composers.  He's still got a perpetual motion fetish but I think it would be a stretch to fit what he's writing nowadays neatly into the minimalism umbrella. His classic stuff from the mid-80s (Harmonielehre, Nixon in China, Short Ride) constitute some of my favorite works in the minimalist genre though, and they have an appealing harmonic complexity and tendency toward development when compared to, say, Glass.  And I'll always have love for Reich and his sense of additive rhythm and texture.  So definitely not knocking minimalism.

[ellaguru]

I don't listen to much Wagner at home, but his stuff is great staged. I've mentioned seeing the Ring Cycle here before, but it was interesting to me how much better it was to see the whole thing rather than just the parts - each of the individual operas was staged a year or two before (I think one per season, with three before and one after they did the full cycle), so I saw most of the productions twice, but doing as the full cycle over a week is totally the way to go on that. If I had the cash I'd totally catch the Ring every few years.

That being said, I think the fun place to start (for folks just dipping their toes) is with lighter, more Italian stuff. Puccini, Bellini, Donizetti, Rossini, Verdi, Bizet (who isn't Italian), stuff like that, and then branch out from there.

[iamnotthou]

Bellini, Donizetti,

ah, how could I forget bella canto?  I would also recommend Bellini's I puritani and Donizetti's Don Pasquale.

[Heathcote]

I didn't really "outgrow" minimalism per se: the problem was I embraced it at too early an age when I still had vast amounts of compositional tools to learn and was risking stunting my growth (I still had yet to study counterpoint, basic compositional form, late Romantic harmony, serialism, you name it)  You'll note that all of the seminal American minimalists developed their style after their studies (a lot of this happening in the 1970s when conservatories were pushing extremes of compositional technique in a unhealthily monolithic way) when they'd learned all the tools and could pick and choose which ones to use in their own music.  My problem was becoming a Reich/Glass devotee when I knew basically none of the tools and was eager to reject things I didn't even understand yet.

I find that this is one of the most current and outstanding problems of today (and probably all other 'days' - but whatever). Not only the fact that this is true of so many people in so many situations, but the problem that people try drum this in to people's heads so hard we all risk going into a big evil misunderstood downward spiral of close mindedness.

I know nothing of Opera and will defiantly check out some of this. This is my first year of independently getting in to 'classical' music, it's easy to feel a bit lost and repellent of things I don't understand, but I get moments when I feel very at home and awed by certian pieces. I think I would like to read a good concise history of 'classical' (I have a problemwith that term) music, I was tempted by 'The Rest In Noise' - but think I want something more broad. Maybe no though...

I went to a Gustav Klimpt exibition and bought a really exciting CD for my Girlfriend

"This collection presents a musical picture of the fin de sielce Vienna inhabited by Klimt, featuring works by the great composers of the day who worked in the city, the popular sound of operetta which dominated Viennese night life, and an extract from the Wagner arrangement of Beethoven's Ninth 'Choral' symphony that inspired Klimt's Beethoven Frieze.

1 Violin Concerto in D major - Adagio Johannes Brahms
2 Symphony No.7 in E major - Allegro moderato (extract) Anton Bruckner
3 Symphony No.2 in C minor 'Resurrection' - Urlicht Gustav Mahler
4 Eine Nacht in Venedig - Komm' in die Gondel Johann Strauss ||
5 Die lustige Witwe - Vilja-Lied Franz Lehar
6 Das Lied von der Erde - Von der Jugend Gustav Mahler
7 Verklarte Nacht - Adagio Arnold Schoenberg
8 Tarantella Karol Szymanowski
9 Symphony No.9 in D Minor 'Choral' - Finale (extract) Ludwig Van Beethoven arr. Richard Wagner
10 Der Schneemann - Serenade Erich Korngold
11 Symphony No.1 in D minor - Sehr innig und breit Alexander Von Zemlinsky
12 Salome - Salome's Dance Richard Strauss"

Anyway, I'm not really talking about opera and don't want to distract the thread too much so I'm gunna shut up. If anyone has any advice about that book though, that'd be well helpful.

[Thermofusion]

Guys I have to share this.  I've been watching some thrilling YouTube clips from John Adams' recent opera Doctor Atomic.  The first is Oppenheimer's haunting aria "Batter My Heart" from the Act I finale, and the second is just unapologetically badass: haunting operatic passages dispersed among apocalyptic choral/orchestral segues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq6uI-IRa9A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SSijYptknc

So fucking awesome.

[ellaguru]

Dr. Atomic is playing at your local movie theatre in the Met Opera simulcast series on 8 November.

I don't have a ticket to that - a friend and I are seeing a set of five, but she was unavailable that weekend. Maybe I'll change my mind. I'm available that weekend.

[Thermofusion]

The closest theater to me that's doing the Met HD simulcasts is two hours away, but goddammit the Met's program this season is fucking sick.  Doctor Atomic, Don Giovanni, Salome, Tristan, Queen of Spades, etc. etc.  I might have to go to some of these anyway.

[ellaguru]

That's a drag. Two hours is pretty far.

Last year they were good, but one of them had poor sound transmission. It wasn't super bad, and I got a free show out of it, but I would have been sad if I had travelled two hours for that show (his is the third simulcast season, though, so hopefully everything's all ironed out).

Totally worth the fifteen minute bike ride, though.

[Thermofusion]

I've yet to attend one, but the mere fact that the Met HD simulcast program exists makes me extraordinarily happy.  But then again, I feel the opera scene is significantly stronger than the contemporary classical scene these days.