Association Football in The British Isles

[Ignatius]

All 4 have drafts, though baseball's is a little weird and rookies can still command pretty big contracts. And, y'know, the NFL and NBA have had salary caps for most of that time, and the NHL has for five or six years, and even baseball has a luxury tax.

But that's the point - whatever the mechanisms, Thermo's saying that more balanced competition is a good thing. Not that American sports are inherently better because they tend to produce a greater variety of champions.

[Ignatius]

FWIW, I think that the ideal level of competition is somewhere between EPL-style imbalance and NFL-style parity. Anytime I remember that Bucs-Raiders Super Bowl I just get pissed off that I watched a full season of football games, only to end up with _that_.

[Thermofusion]

Not that American sports are inherently better because they tend to produce a greater variety of champions.

they are, though

[Chet]

Yes, American sports are much better, that's why they're such global phenomenons.

[Thermofusion]

Maybe if we'd followed Britain's example and ingested 1/4th of the world's population we coulda spread our gospel a little better to the savage darkies

[Ignatius]

So you're saying the EPL is like the Celine Dion of sport, chet?

[Nick Ink]

I went to a rounders baseball game once. The Toronto Bluejays against someone. George Bell got me the tickets. It lasted hours and finished 1-0. It was too long really, I have to say, and rather repetetive. But it was interesting, as a one-off experience. One thing that I didn't understand, I had to keep moving so people could walk past to buy food and drinks. During the game too. It was like a shopping centre at the back of the stand! What's that all about? Nobody should be allowed to buy food and drinks at a sports match. It's not the cinema!

To be fair, I don't like most English sports either. Rugby especially. A very unlovely spectacle. Not even sure I like football, in and of itself.

[Thermofusion]

Nobody should be allowed to buy food and drinks at a sports match. It's not the cinema!

Man in a weird way I kinda agree with this! And I love nasty stadium food...

[Thermofusion]

Here's the thing though: not really comparing soccer vs. gridiron or cricket vs. baseball, etc. But I do think a system where, like the Scottish top flight, one of two teams has won the championship every year since 1985 is pretty bogus. How is that exciting for the 16 other teams in the league? How is that exciting for the spectators? What's the point of having a league?

[Chet]

Well, there's rivalries, the chance to earn a place to compete in Europe, the various Cup Competitions and you know, the chance to beat the big boys.

[Thermofusion]

Yeah I figure winning your fiercest derby might be more important than winning the championship, and I can understand/respect that. Has anyone ever broached the topic of draft or salary cap in the EPL? Does anyone complain about parity and/or propose steps to make league competition more level? If not, then there's no sense in a dumb yank like me getting all worked up about it if y'all are cool with the system you've got!

[Chet]

Yeah I figure winning your fiercest derby might be more important than winning the championship, and I can understand/respect that. Has anyone ever broached the topic of draft or salary cap in the EPL? Does anyone complain about parity and/or propose steps to make league competition more level? If not, then there's no sense in a dumb yank like me getting all worked up about it if y'all are cool with the system you've got!

Nope, because everyone is making a lot of money and they're happy with that.

[Chet]

Oh, and the NFL can have a salary cap because there is nowhere else for the players to go. If the EPL brought one in, then the players would just go where the money is. It would have to be global, which would take some doing.

[Ignatius]

That's not necessarily true. Look at hockey - the vast majority of the world's hockey talent has remained in the NHL, even though the KHL has no cap when it comes to poaching NHL players.

[Ignatius]

Plus didn't you just say that teams are going bankrupt?

[Chet]

That's different though, the KHL isn't nearly on the same level, and I'm sure they couldn't even afford to match NHL wages without the cap, whereas Europe is full of Football leagues of a higher or similar standard to the EPL.

[Thermofusion]

Oh, and the NFL can have a salary cap because there is nowhere else for the players to go. If the EPL brought one in, then the players would just go where the money is. It would have to be global, which would take some doing.

Or let's say you create this hypothetical European League with teams like AC, Bayern, Real, Man U, whatever. You institute a salary cap, an entry draft for players from top-flight national leagues, etc., to ensure the tightest competition and highest standard of play. This new league immediately settles the debate of "what's the most elite football league in Europe?", so even if your wages are restricted by a salary cap, I'd like to think as a player you'd be more inclined to remain in this elite super-league just for the status rather than take more money to play in a lesser league*. Besides it's not like you're not making a shitload of money anyway.

*to be fair I know fading soccer stars take more money to play in lesser leagues all the time, but such is the circle of life or whatever

[Chet]

So, basically you've created a senario where all the biggest teams are getting the best players, that's different how? I guess now they're all competing against each other.

Is there a salary cap in the feeder leagues? If not, I can guarantee you that a few teams will rise to the top and dominate.

Either way, it won't happen because of player power and european employment laws.

[Thermofusion]

I don't know man, I'm just throwing ideas out my ass. If I were a billionaire oil sheik though I'd come over there and shake some football shit up though.

I do think all professional leagues should have salary caps. And ideally a draft, but I imagine that's probably impossible to implement over there. But something to help the little guys out against the big money machines. Otherwise what chance does humble Blubbersbury & Mouthamshire FC have against your Man Us?

[Nick Ink]

Otherwise what chance does humble Blubbersbury & Mouthamshire FC have against your Man Us?

Over the longer term, none at all, but of course there are countless one-off examples of giant-killings.

Things like salary caps and drafts are interesting ideas, but I would bet every last penny I have that neither could ever happen here, so far are they from our traditions and way of doing thjings. Also, as Chet says, they'd be illegal.

But I can't help coming back to the fact that of the 92 professional football teams in England, only about 6 (and that's a stretch of the imagination, really) even entertain the ambition of winning the league in, say, the next 10-15 years.

Beyond that elite (who are also, at board/ownership level anyway, increasingly focussed on winning European competitions [or at least being in them for long enough to milk the cash-cow] as opposed to domestic competitions), you have about 25 clubs crossing the Premier League and the Championship who are fighting for a place in the top flight. Not to win it, mind, and in most cases, not even to qualify for Europe through a high league placing, but merely to get a seat at the table and the all-important share of the TV money that that brings.

All of that is looking at it from the owners' and shareholders' point of view, of course. The supporters are a different matter, which brings me back to my original point about following a team like West Ham - traditionally a top flight team, but top 20 rather than top 10 in the country. There is no longer, as you quite rightly say thermo, any interest or any fun in being in the Premier League. Though it hurts me to say it, and despite the opportunity to get an upset against a rival, the list of teams against whom you didn't really expect a result has now expanded from just Manchester United and Arsenal to include Liverpool, Manchester City, Chelsea, goddamnit even Tottenham! Soon, newly-rich QPR will be on that list, and any other team lucky enough to get a Sheik roll into town with his chequebook.

West Ham have never won the league. It's now unthinkable that they ever will. When I was 11, they won the FA Cup. More than 30 years on, that's a feat they haven't managed to repeat, even though it's a competition now so devalued in the eyes of those 'big clubs' that they don't even field their strongest teams for it. So, I'm absolutely loving being down in Division 2. At the moment, we're 4th with 13 points out of 18. It's been a good start with a new bunch of players and we've scored 14 goals in our last 3 games. There's been more excitement, more success, and really just more of a story to it all in the last few weeks than in the previous 3 seasons. We might even win the title if some of the new signings can gel, which is an exciting prospect, Probably come straight back down again, mind! (and there are plenty of clubs whose fans if they're honest would genuinely prefer not to go up too high - just ask the Derby fans who endured their record-breakingly poor EPL season a few years ago)

So, you know, the Premier League isn't everything - football's appeal isn't about being first out of 92, it's about being in the mix, renewing rivalries and acquaintances, about unpredictability and the joy of the game. As the 1966 England and West Ham captain Sir Bobby Moore once said, "Win, draw or lose, always on the booze!"

[Nick Ink]

Just as an addendum, I would say that even the Champions' (and their mates') League is now becoming a predictable procession.

This year's competition is barely underway, and yet something tells me that Arsenal will capitulate unexpectedly, Chelsea will complain about the poor refereeing decisions that ultimately see them eliminated, and Manchester United will look great right up until the point when they are outclassed by a Spanish team wearing blue and red.

Mystic Nick, he sees it all.

[Chet]

Yes, but this is outrageous

http://videa.hu/videok/sport/p1-1s-xjeGpYTtqxzhDblg

Hulk indeed.

[Nick Ink]

Yes, but this is outrageous

http://videa.hu/videok/sport/p1-1s-xjeGpYTtqxzhDblg

Hulk indeed.

I saw Paul Clark hit one from further than that for Brighton against Huddersfield in the old Third Division when I was about 13!

I don't know - I mean, I can admire a good goal, of course, but when it comes to down to it, it's the League 1 and 2 title races* I've got my eye on tonight, not the Champions' League group matches.

* Rotherham going strong in L2, don't know what's happened to Crawley all of a sudden. In League 1, the two Sheffield clubs have shipped 7 between them tonight (got to feel sorry for poor old Blades fans, ahem), and Charlton look like staying top without kicking a ball. Ex-West Ham legend, Paolo Di Canio's Swindon are hitting some good form, and several 'Ammers youngsters playing out on loan - Montano doing well at Notts County, Hall just scored tonight on his debut for Oxford (only 17, great prospect) etc etc

[kyle]

Yes, but this is outrageous

http://videa.hu/videok/sport/p1-1s-xjeGpYTtqxzhDblg

Hulk indeed.

I saw Paul Clark hit one from further than that for Brighton against Huddersfield in the old Third Division when I was about 13!

I don't know - I mean, I can admire a good goal, of course, but when it comes to down to it, it's the League 1 and 2 title races* I've got my eye on tonight, not the Champions' League group matches.

Do they show League 1 and 2 games on Tv? Do you care? You've kind of made it clear before you don't really even enjoy the game itself, just the narratives. I appreciate the narratives, but could not follow teams in leagues in which I could not actually visually see the games played out.

[Chet]

BTW, I do think something needs to be done about clubs spending outwidth of their means. Clubs like Man Utd, Barca and Real Madrid are operating under debts large enough to cripple small economies. I think I read somewhere that the big four in England have a combined debt of over £1 billion. I think Platini spoke about bringing in a ruling that only allows clubs to spend money that they generate, but how viable this is I don't know. The top clubs probably hold too much power for it to ever pass. Also, I guess it may make things even less competitive because it would take the likes of Chelsea and Man City out of the equation.