Finding God in music.

[ellaguru]

one, it is fact to me because of the things i have seen and been through, to say that it is merely an oppinion at this point is stupid on my behalf.

Well, but things don't get to be "a fact to me", though, right? That's not what "fact" means. Things either are facts, in which case they are facts to everyone and whoever disagrees is simply wrong, or they are not facts at all. On the other hand, I do think it's fair for you argue that your faith (or whatever) is more than just opinion - it's just that, y'know, "fact" isn't the word you're looking for.

[dieblucasdie]

one, it is fact to me because of the things i have seen and been through, to say that it is merely an oppinion at this point is stupid on my behalf.  i will not FORCE my belief on others, to each their own.

if people are offended, i want to ask them why.  why does someones love of something that is Good and higher than himself so threatening or terrible to that person that they want to attack me for it..

let them be offended, the Bible says, " just as it was written, "Behold, i lay Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed." " romans 9:33

It *is* pretty offensive to say "everyone is searching for the divine even if they don't think they are."  It's pretty anti-self-determinism, something you should be all 'bout if you're a Christian (edit: unless you're a Calvinist or a Jehovah's Witness or something, which I suppose is possible). 

Also, I would like to hear why it is a "fact" to you and not an article of faith.  Apparently you've succeeded where every other Christian in the history of the world has failed. 

[auto-da-fey]

so far BGR hasn't argued against marriage equality or claimed that every sperm is sacred. I don't mind the God stuff or feel like s/he's proselytizing, for what it's worth. Marinus likes ethics, I like porn, billy goat redemption likes God, whatever.

have been wondering, though, whether the forthcoming Gandalfs album will inspire a rash of similarly-themed threads. actually really curious how it'll be received in believer communities--was thinking about starting on a thread on it so that folks who follow such matters could keep me posted on that, but not until it drops (I'm holding out to buy it [though I am dl'ing Japan's Tin Drum as I type, on Nick Ink's rec])

[dieblucasdie]

so far BGR hasn't argued against marriage equality or claimed that every sperm is sacred. I don't mind the God stuff or feel like s/he's proselytizing, for what it's worth. Marinus likes ethics, I like porn, billy goat redemption likes God, whatever.

have been wondering, though, whether the forthcoming Gandalfs album will inspire a rash of similarly-themed threads. actually really curious how it'll be received in believer communities--was thinking about starting on a thread on it so that folks who follow such matters could keep me posted on that, but not until it drops (I'm holding out to buy it [though I am dl'ing Japan's Tin Drum as I type, on Nick Ink's rec])

I like God too!  Really I'm more annoyed by religious people who don't know their shit and speak in randomly-assembled platitudes than anything.  It would be like if a new poster showed up and started a thread repping for Bangbus or something

[auto-da-fey]

oh, totes understood. I've got no stake in this and understand your, Jeb's, davy's, etc. responses. I have a pretty strong antipathy toward organized religion in general, myself. just voicing my apathy w/r/t to this thread and thinking out loud, is all.

I wouldn't mind a Bangbus-repping thread either, let's face it.

[davy]

Japan's Tin Drum

Excellent stuff.

[Andrew_TSKS]

I wouldn't mind a Bangbus-repping thread either, let's face it.

Well, I would! This isn't the place, but... gaaaah.

[Andrew_TSKS]

one, it is fact to me because of the things i have seen and been through, to say that it is merely an oppinion at this point is stupid on my behalf.

Well, but things don't get to be "a fact to me", though, right? That's not what "fact" means. Things either are facts, in which case they are facts to everyone and whoever disagrees is simply wrong, or they are not facts at all. On the other hand, I do think it's fair for you argue that your faith (or whatever) is more than just opinion - it's just that, y'know, "fact" isn't the word you're looking for.

Exactly. I'm fine with someone having faith in something, but that's totally different from saying it's fact.

EDIT: Which is also to say, this is why Pedro The Lion/Underoath lyrics don't bug me, but that Manchester Orchestra lyric kinda did.

[davy]

I get such an unpleasant vibe from that band and I don't even really know why.

[auto-da-fey]

I wouldn't mind a Bangbus-repping thread either, let's face it.

Well, I would! This isn't the place, but... gaaaah.

yeah, I didn't mean that I'd join the cheerleading, mostly that I kind of enjoy the trainwreck threads.

but in the interest of nonetheless preventing that, I think I posted a while ago about admiring the new Bazan solo album. still liking it quite a bit, even though the weird sub-proggy keyboards at the very beginning are kind of disconcerting at first. I think Bazan is fighting the good fight when it comes to religiosity, agnosticism, and the likes.

[dieblucasdie]

It would be really awesome if this thread actually became about Bangbus

[Maaik]

I'm down with their appreciation of curvyness.  Everything else about them gets me kind of stabby.

[auto-da-fey]

there was a bisexual Danish porn film about Jesus in 1976 that split the Christian press--the liberals represented by Christian Century advised against making a fuss, while the fundie-courting Christianity Today supported getting up in arms over it.

it's not Bangbus, but it's something.

[Achmetha]

Those of you who are uncomfortable with religion will be really miserable when "Life of the World to Come" is released.

[davy]

I can't say I'm really looking forward to discussing it here, to be honest.

[dieblucasdie]

Those of you who are uncomfortable with religion will be really miserable when "Life of the World to Come" is released.

Someone give homeboy a link to John's posts in that "Our God is an Awesome God" thread.

[coldforge]

I am just a little disappointed that within the nomenclature of this thread, 'finding God' means 'affirming your faith in Christianity'.

[Charming Tedious]

Well, that's what it means to young evangelicals--they don't know much of anything about other faiths, or really about their own.  They don't get to read Walter Rauschenbusch or Reinhold Niebuhr or Paul Tillich or James Cone or Gustavo Guiterrez or Cornel West or Elizabeth Johnson or Serene Jones.  They read C.S. Lewis instead--they know apologetics instead of theology.

And they affirm questioning, this figure of the "seeker" but then get really confused when whatever answers this "seeker" eventually finds conflict with evangelical doctrine.

[dieblucasdie]

I am just a little disappointed that within the nomenclature of this thread, 'finding God' means 'affirming your faith in Christianity'.

dude quoted Paul.

[Andrew_TSKS]

It does seem a little weird to me that our new poster goes straight from talk of searching to talking of God's existence--presumably the thing being searched for--as a fact. It's like there is searching going on, but only for predetermined things. It's like a detective who throws out evidence in a murder case because it doesn't implicate the prime suspect.

I really kind of hate, though, that this might all just drive our new poster away. I'm not only fine with but sometimes a bit hungry for reasonable dialogue with people who hold different views than myself. I don't want my taking issue with the word "fact" to seem like a rejection; I think dude is using the word wrong, but I find discussion of the issue he's bringing up in this thread interesting and worthwhile. I spend a lot of time looking for music with redemptive, emotional power within it, and when I find it, it's hard to put the feelings I have about it into words. The emotions that come from that sort of thing are not really rational, and I recognize that.

That said, I see humankind as able to operate on a level of non-rational thought without invoking God. Mystical experiences to me do not have to arise from something divine or even something on a higher plane than myself. They're just a different way of experiencing the world. I see love as a very powerful emotion that can cause those feelings and experiences in people, but I don't see love as a manifestation of God or any other sort of higher power. I don't attribute consciousness to it. It just is, however hard it may be to define.

So yeah, to me, the subject of this thread is interesting and cool, but approaching it from a strictly Christian perspective is very problematic to me.

[dieblucasdie]

But CT is right, the language in the OP is transparently Christian, even if it's not explicitly Christian.  Moreover, it's transparently American Protestant (I don't think its necessarily specific to evangelicism).  People didn't make that leap for no reason.  xpost

[ellaguru]

I am just a little disappointed that within the nomenclature of this thread, 'finding God' means 'affirming your faith in Christianity'.

your faith (or whatever)

I think I, at least, am being relatively cosmopolitan.

[Andrew_TSKS]

I'm really bummed to find, upon searching the archives, that my 2006-era thread about explicit mentions of Christianity in music is gone. That was a pretty good thread.

[coldforge]

bluc, i wasn't being disappointed in your direction. in the very first OP i was reading some wiggle room for more general questions of faith, but the possibilities got whittled away with every passing reference to spears in sides and all that.

Walter Rauschenbusch or Reinhold Niebuhr or Paul Tillich or James Cone or Gustavo Guiterrez or Cornel West or Elizabeth Johnson or Serene Jones.

i should note that i've never read any of these people either. It's like—I don't think of God as some old guy with a big white beard, you know? God could be anything! He could be this table. He could totally be this table. I guess... I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious. Does that make sense? Like, I could totally get off spiritually just on a ray of light, or on my favorite song.

[dieblucasdie]

I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious.

Ugh, this line is a pet peeve of mine.  I hear it all the time, and when people say it, it sort of reminds me of people who self-identify as "independents" in political polls.  What are the definitions of "spiritual" and "religious" you're working with?  What sort of spirituality do you envision that doesn't necessarily carry a religious element?  Just being sinful or nonobservant or individualistic or whatever isn't the same as being nonreligious.  Generally "I'm spiritual but I'm not religious" scans for me as "I'm religious but I'm too lazy to go to any services."

The "God could be anything" concept you're articulating isn't nonreligious, it's very religious, actually.