Havent you heard? I'm the king of NY! (news thread)

[fishjim]

Like a lot of other people, I'm generally supportive but also pretty cynical about the OWS thing. D was down there yesterday and sent me some photos and video. All of the criticisms of the protestors not having a cogent agenda are misguided, I think, as are all of these satellite OCCUPY TOPEKA, etc. protests. If whatever's going on in lower Manhattan has *any* chance of being a catalyst for something greater than a liberal Tea Party or a really unbearable continuing conversation in the national media, it would seem to me that every able-bodied person organizing in cities around the country should instead head for NYC. Ten people camped out in a park in Cincinnati or Madison ain't accomplishing shit, but if you could swell the numbers in the Financial District to the point where it was continually disruptive...

I disagree. It's precisely the decentralized nature of the protest - like Critical Mass, like the Internet itself - that makes it viral and unstoppable.

[elpollodiablo]

Critical Mass is viral and unstoppable?

Also I think it might be the global corporate infrastructure and changing societal attitudes about technology that makes the internet unstoppable

[elpollodiablo]

I really like that idea. I know a couple of people who went up there but they are the people in my group of friends who have rich parents and don't have to work for money.

See I was speculating the other day--are these protests being made more viable and visible because more people are able to participate due to being unemployed? I mean, fuck, if I didn't have any work-related obligations, I'd be up there right now.

[Antero]

I'd be up in there except I stick it to the man as a day job.

[peacocks]

Same. If I were unemployed, however, I still wouldn't be up there because I'd be having to scramble to find a job in order to keep my apartment and pay the bills and all my savings that I could use for a trip like that would be spent on rent and bills. That's one reason why it is good that there are offshoots in other cities. You have more time to organize when you are unemployed but you don't necessarily have the resources to travel across multiple states for a political protest, so you bring it home. It's scarier to people when things are spread out and not in one distant location. If it is happening locally, even if it is smaller, people are going to think about it a lot more. They can't be so easily detached from it if it is right in front of their face.

[fishjim]

Critical Mass is viral and unstoppable?

Yes, it is. Watch the documentary WE ARE TRAFFIC if you disagree. Also, read this recent analysis at Grist Magazine to get a sense of the political tactics we've learned from this global protest, going on its 20th year.

"Marching on Two Wheels: Bikes, Protests, and Public Space"
Oct 6, 2011
By ELLY BLUE

Also I think it might be the global corporate infrastructure and changing societal attitudes about technology that makes the internet unstoppable

Are you kidding me? The Internet was developed as a way to keep the U.S. computers running in the event of an attack. Knock out one hub, and the rest pick up the slack. Yojimbo can probably explain this better than I can. But it's hardly a point in dispute.

[Thermofusion]

All of the criticisms of the protestors not having a cogent agenda are misguided, I think, as are all of these satellite OCCUPY TOPEKA, etc. protests. If whatever's going on in lower Manhattan has *any* chance of being a catalyst for something greater than a liberal Tea Party or a really unbearable continuing conversation in the national media, it would seem to me that every able-bodied person organizing in cities around the country should instead head for NYC. Ten people camped out in a park in Cincinnati or Madison ain't accomplishing shit, but if you could swell the numbers in the Financial District to the point where it was continually disruptive...

This is a pretty cynical viewpoint. I feel like the movement is about, above anything else, building awareness of corporate-driven economic disparity. Sure, the smaller cities with spinoff protests aren't New York, but I think it's safe to say that NY's corporate tentacles reach all the way to Cincinnati and Madison and, furthermore, even small cities like those are centralized regional seats of corporate power. My friends were doing Occupy Charlotte this weekend and they had lots of passerby coming up to them asking what they were protesting. They told them. I think understanding that what happens in disgusting centers of global economic hegemony like NY affects everyone else's backyard is a crucial connection to make. Generating awareness of this local connection is pretty key to impacting change, in my opinion. And these lulzy satellite protests are drawing pretty well. Over 500 in Charlotte with little organization. Several hundred in Cincinnati on Saturday, according to one of your local news outlets. Don't be so pessimistic.

[elpollodiablo]

Sure, and as I said, I *am* pretty cynical about the whole thing--though I'm trying not to be. My only point was that if the total purpose of the protests is simply to raise awareness, then that's cool--those satellite protests would seem to perhaps be having some effect. If you want to turn what's going on in Manhattan into a catalyst for something larger--and I don't mean electing a dozen-odd obstructionist lefty legislators to balance out the Tea Party caucus--then a way to do that would be to gather tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of people down there. Choke the streets. Shut down that part of the city. Force a nonviolent confrontation that will make everyone, even the cynical pundits, go "Oh, SHIT." While of course you're right about the disseminated, de-centralized nature of the "global economic hegemony," NYC is the center of world media and the seat of a lot of these corporations and banks. It's great that there's so much solidarity being shown around the country, but if all of those people could somehow beam into Zuccotti Park and environs right now, this shit would go nuclear.

[fishjim]

NYC is the center of world media and the seat of a lot of these corporations and banks.

Come the fuck on, pollo. This is provincial American thinking.

[elpollodiablo]

I guess the non-cynical part of me is hoping that leftist direct action is about to move beyond merely "promoting awareness," which has been pretty much the sum total effect of similar protests for the last forty years. I'm not talking about violence, either, but obstructionism. People want to refer to this as the American Tahrir Square, but it's never going to get there without similar centralization. Spectacle is powerful. Crowds are powerful--when they're crowds.

[elpollodiablo]

NYC is the center of world media and the seat of a lot of these corporations and banks.

Come the fuck on, pollo. This is provincial American thinking.

Sorry, I'll remember to carefully situate my rhetoric in more appropriately relativist terms next time!

I mean seriously dude, what the fuck. If there's a center of world media, it's NYC or London. Yes that's due to a massive amount of economic inequality, cultural imperialism, neocolonial condescension, etc., etc., but it's also kind of just the truth. Shit that happens in Manhattan is news *everywhere.* I can walk you through the reasons for that, if you want.

[Antero]

I can walk you through the reasons for that, if you want.

Aside from the traditional self-obsession of Manhattanites? 

Give the obstructionism some time.  This is just getting started.

[elpollodiablo]

I can walk you through the reasons for that, if you want.

Aside from the traditional self-obsession of Manhattanites? 

I mean, sure! But also the fact that a huge proportion of America's media people live and work there, the city itself is international synecdoche for America, it's one of the largest international cities in the West, has deep ties to some of our major trading partners, etc., etc.

[fishjim]

Pollo, what do you mean by "world media" anyway? Book publishing is dying, and your local paper, the NYT, completely ignored the protest until the decentralized nature of it forced them to cover their ass.

And banks? For Christ's sake. There is no geography to banking. If there's a center to global finance it's probably the Cayman Islands & the rest of the offshore banks of the world. Why aren't we demonstrating there?

[elpollodiablo]

Those are both really useful points you make there.

[Thermofusion]

And banks? For Christ's sake. There is no geography to banking. If there's a center to global finance it's probably the Cayman Islands & the rest of the offshore banks of the world. Why aren't we demonstrating there?

But any self-respecting evil corporation of size has offshore subsidiaries in the Caymans. Meanwhile NY is home to the HQs of Citigroup, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley, Goldman, and other highly capitalized investment banks with influence all over the world, the two largest exchange markets in the world, etc. Most of the TARP money ended up in NYC. It's not a central seat of power?

[fishjim]

I see your point, Thermo, but it's not like there's any heavy industrial infrastructure in NYC that requires big finance to be there. Money moves over the wires. Relocate a server farm, you relocate a company.

The only thing that makes NYC a central seat of finance is human capital. And we can fight that from anywhere, really. The arguments are simple and easy to repeat, and are often done so online by supporters who can't join the occupiers because of their jobs.

[Antero]

You're BOTH right.

[Ignatius]

This country is gigantic.

[Anne the Man]

We have to demonstrate here in New Zealand because it's _our_ government that's slashing our public service, privatising everything and giving the rich tax breaks. If America changes NZ will tag along, but us going to NYC (even if we could afford it) would trigger an indirect long-term effect at best. It might be good for us to all flock to Wellington and maybe trap people inside Parliament or whatever, but that's cos we might actually need to do that since we're so small a country. Anyway, our local governments all do stupid shit and are often in the pocket of big business, so yeah.

I like that my job involves going to Occupy Wellington. Two birds, one stone etc.

[Antero]

This is awesomely global.

[fishjim]

Check this out:

Oct 15 - Worldwide Events Map

Also, while the NYT may have flunked its protest coverage, The New Yorker deserves credit for its Oct 10 cover art by Eric Drooker. He's been a favorite illustrator of mine since reading his prophetic graphic novel, Flood (1992). And this was before I knew of his collaborations with Allen Ginsberg.

We've got the bull by the balls.

[Thermofusion]

That New Yorker cover is fucking awesome

[Anne the Man]

As are the posters.

Incidentally, do you think it'd come off hella pretentious if I linked my article on the Occupy Wall St Facebook thing? It'd hopefully increase Scoop's audience as well...

[Good Intentions]

I genuinely don't get this 'We are the 53%' thing (putting aside for the moment it's a small clearing house for sanctimonious people on the internet). What's the 53%? People who pay federal income tax? That's the only sense I could make of the figure. But if so... what?!