A Dance With Dragons (contains spoilers)

[Thermofusion]

Imagine a heartbeat, then reduce it exactly by half.

[davy]

Collected a new one this morning!

much and more / little and less

[elpollodiablo]

Oh fuck yeah I hate that one

[DCDave]

So what you guys are saying is George RR Martin is a bad writer? Weird.

[elpollodiablo]

The writing doesn't even enter into it for me. GRR has assembled a suitable if limited roll of pat phrases and ornamental epithets that he uses as a plot delivery medium. I am okay with this.

[Thermofusion]

See also: Stephen King

[elpollodiablo]

Sure, if that's your thing! My problem with King is that often the plots are fucking terrible, too.

Also I've yet to see Martin resort to italics and multiple question marks for certain emphasis.

[davy]

Mr. King really has no excuse for all the italics.

And for the record, I am definitely NOT saying GRRM is a bad writer. He's probably the best I've encountered in this genre. And that includes Tolkein god damn it.

But it's funny that he has such an odd collection of recurring phrases.

[Greg Nog]

Also I've yet to see Martin resort to italics and multiple question marks for certain emphasis.

Something was pouring from his mouth. He examined his sleeve. Blood??? Blood. Crimson copper-smelling blood -- his blood. Blood. Blood. Blood. And bits of sick.

[Thermofusion]

I think I mentioned I'd been reading Fevre Dream (which I really liked) as my first dip into GRR, and I found the writing itself serviceable but unimpressive after all the hype. But, like pollo was saying, all of that took a backseat to the really fuckin' cool story. That said, I found myself wishing at a couple points that I could read the same novel written by someone like China Mieville instead (who IMO has the opposite problem of writers like Martin and King)

[elpollodiablo]

I feel like GRR's real strengths are in names (which sounds ridiculous, but I'm convinced it's a significant part of the reason his stuff works so well; they just sound authentic to their little demimonde somehow), character concepts (if not deft characterization), and awesome, just awesome, set pieces. He's also really good at dumping a lot of exposition on you in ways that not only sometimes escape notice, but make you actively want more of it.

[Captain]

I feel like GRR's real strengths are in names

If we're talking names, I defy you to find a better one than Pynchon's Mike Fallopian.  Mike Fallopian????

Anyways, I haven't read any of the author in question, so carry on.

[Thermofusion]

Chick Counterfly!

[YojimboMonkey]

How much of that is lazy repeated phrases and how much is idiomatic consistency? I think at least the "much and more" / "little and less" is the latter. If that makes any sense. Not that that makes it any less annoying I guess.

[davy]

Oh yeah, I'm not taking a stance on whether it's intentional or not. In fact, I'm sure it probably started out that way, at the least. I still think it's fun to spot them. It's like a literary drinking game!

Also

If we're talking names, I defy you to find a better one than Pynchon's Mike Fallopian.  Mike Fallopian????

Time for everyone to list their favorite character names!

Beric Dondarrion
Davos Seaworth
The Greatjon
Ilyn Payne
Mance Rayder
Roose Bolton, Lord of the Dreadfort!

And speaking of which, his naming prowess is in no way limited to people. Castles, towns, rivers -- hell, he'll tackle basic fucking nouns & concepts often enough.

GRRM is one side of this spectrum, George Lucas is the other.

[Dick]

That said, I found myself wishing at a couple points that I could read the same novel written by someone like China Mieville instead (who IMO has the opposite problem of writers like Martin and King)

I've noticed China Mieville often over-uses certain words in a similar way to Martin.  I know I noticed 3 or 4 when I was reading, the one that sticks out to me now is 'susurrus'.

[dieblucasdie]

Guys, you should finish the goddamn book so we can talk about Azor Ahai

[Thermofusion]

Hey blucas you should go livepost goddamn Carter IV

[dieblucasdie]

So I been listening to Clash of Kings on audiobook during my commute in preparation for the new season (SUNDAY, BITCHES), and a few things I noticed:

1) During Dany's whole thing with the Undying, Martin basically straight-up tells us that Aegon is still alive. When I read ADWD, I was kinda annoyed by that whole development ("WHY ARE YOU INTRODUCING NEW COMPLICATIONS THIS LATE. WIND IT DOWN."), but it definitely heartens me that it he seems to have always had it planned.

2) Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it struck me that we STILL don't know why Ser Mandon Moore tried to kill Tyrion during the Battle of Blackwater. If it were as cut-and-dried as "Cersei told him to," you'd think that would've been cleared up by now. Varys maybe? Littlefinger? Maybe bruh IS the third Targaryen after all, and not Jon?

3) The whole Reek/Ramsay/Theon/Hornwood thing was way more clear on a re-"read." Part of my confusion the first time stemmed from the fact that the whole thing is introduced during a Bran chapter, and basically presented as some boring lordly business Bran has to sit through and not, you know, pivotal information. The first time Martin mentions Ramsay, it's in the same breath as a bunch of Tallhearts, Umbers, and Glovers who might also want to claim Hornwood's estate, and there's no reason for you to commit that shit to memory.

[dieblucasdie]

Hey, you guys know what are surprisingly good? The Dunk and Egg novellas. Especially the first one and the third one. And now I realize that there were parts of ADWD where it seemed like Martin was going over a bunch of important history really quickly (all the Golden Company/Blackfyre stuff), but really he was just assuming that you'd read the Dunk and Egg novellas.

And you know, now it's really, really, really clear who the three-eyed crow is.

[milly balgeary]

I like those. A lot.

[dieblucasdie]

A new one is supposed to come out sometime this summer/fall!

[milly balgeary]

Yes!

[dieblucasdie]

It's called "The She-Wolves of Winterfell" and there is like a 100% chance that Dunk will knock up Nan

[davy]

Where do you find these? Aside from the graphic novel, I've never seen them in physical form.