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Author Topic: Moon Bases Not Moon Lassos: New LOLConservatives Thread  (Read 10956 times)
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Thermofusion
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« Reply #225 on: Feb 14, 2012, 01:41:56 AM »

What's embarrassing is, like, "HERE'S THIS BIBLICAL QUOTE THAT IS REPUGNANT OR NONSENSICAL, I WIN."  That works in a universe where the only people you need to convince are other atheists, tabula rasa people with no actual opinions, or fundamentalist Christian robots who beep out "does not compute" and explode when confronted with evidence of biblical tomfoolery.  Hopefully our standard of discourse is a bit beyond that.

What about people who find basically everything in the Bible outside of Proverbs, the New Testament parables and irrelevant stuff like that one OT book that's basically just a jewish census, like, nonsensical? I mean it's THE founding document of Western culture so it has unending value but it's still, you know, a translation of a translation of a translation of something written by three dozen authors spread across 1500 years, with arguments about canon going on another 1000 years, and yep it's pretty idiotic to me that people take that shit seriously as a religious text.

I mean look at how many different writers were on Lost, and how dumb that shit ended up.

Guys I'm also drunk
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Babar
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« Reply #226 on: Feb 14, 2012, 01:49:46 AM »

It's most definitely not worthless. I've not read it from cover to cover but about 70% of it (all the letters are kinda boring, incidentally the part I quoted is from that) and it's an extraordinary piece of literature and a detrimental read to understand western history. But like you said, it should be approached and appreciated as just that, fiction. Like Hávamál or Homer's epics that I alluded to earlier in a comic manner. Christianity is an ancient mythology that has managed to outlive other ancient mythologies and survive to the modern era. It doesn't mean that I think it's worthless and I'd recommend anyone to read the Bible and other . Yeah, I was openly mocking something that many people do hold close to their heart and I guess that can be perceived as insensitive and I apologize if anyone was offended. As long as religion is not imposed on other individuals or used as a guide to run society (theocracy) I have no problems with it but unfortunately there exist many examples of that.

x-post: Thermo ftw with the Lost analogy
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Good Intentions
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« Reply #227 on: Feb 14, 2012, 02:03:23 AM »

You can't understand the Bible if you treat it as a piece of fiction. Enormous reaches of it would make no sense if you did, like the letters.

The deeper mistake is treating the Bible as a one-book codification of Christianity (or the Quran of Islam, etc.). It takes its place within a context of interpretation - there are reasons why most Christians ignore the majority of the religious law in the old testament, but take notice of some of it. They are historical reasons, and large parts of the canon exist outside of the Bible, and lots of the Bible only is meaningful within that history.
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fishjim
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« Reply #228 on: Feb 14, 2012, 02:09:14 AM »

babar is an idiot but even if blucas winds up pope that ship can't be salvaged. Positive contributions?

Lots to be found in the Gospel of Thomas, translated and annotated by Stevan Davies.

The Gospel of Thomas was the big find at Nag Hammadi in 1945. It's a collection of the sayings of Jesus, about half of which already appear (or are paraphrased) in the four canonical gospels. The remainder are all new, and do a lot to confirm the Gnostic idea that the Kingdom of God is to be found within - i.e., it's not just a big party at the finish line at the end of time.

Here's a few favorites.

10. Jesus said: I have thrown fire on the world. Look! I watch it until it blazes.

14a. Jesus said to them: If you fast you will bring sin to yourselves, and if you pray you will be condemned, and if you give to charity you will damage your spirits.

16a. Jesus said: People think, perhaps, that I have come to throw peace upon the world. They don't know that I have come to throw disagreement upon the world, and fire, and sword, and struggle.
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Good Intentions
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« Reply #229 on: Feb 14, 2012, 02:10:21 AM »

Jesus, this is an epic derail. Haven't seen one like this in a while.
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Antero
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« Reply #230 on: Feb 14, 2012, 02:15:39 AM »

babar is an idiot but even if blucas winds up pope that ship can't be salvaged. Positive contributions?

Lots to be found in the Gospel of Thomas, translated and annotated by Stevan Davies.
Non-canonical, though.  The Pope doesn't care about that either way.
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Babar
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« Reply #231 on: Feb 14, 2012, 02:17:08 AM »

You can't understand the Bible if you treat it as a piece of fiction. Enormous reaches of it would make no sense if you did, like the letters.

The deeper mistake is treating the Bible as a one-book codification of Christianity (or the Quran of Islam, etc.). It takes its place within a context of interpretation - there are reasons why most Christians ignore the majority of the religious law in the old testament, but take notice of some of it. They are historical reasons, and large parts of the canon exist outside of the Bible, and lots of the Bible only is meaningful within that history.

I agree with you there 100%
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fishjim
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« Reply #232 on: Feb 14, 2012, 02:17:50 AM »

babar is an idiot but even if blucas winds up pope that ship can't be salvaged. Positive contributions?

Lots to be found in the Gospel of Thomas, translated and annotated by Stevan Davies.
Non-canonical, though.  The Pope doesn't care about that either way.

Well, duh.

EDIT: Are we arguing religion, the Bible, or Jesus? I get confused.
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Babar
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« Reply #233 on: Feb 14, 2012, 02:21:29 AM »

I don't know about you guys, I'm arguing Cthulhu.
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YojimboMonkey
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Posts: 12034


« Reply #234 on: Feb 14, 2012, 07:55:02 AM »

Well, the part where Odysseus blinded the cyclops was pretty awesome.

So's this: Shadrach - Beastie Boys

Quick, Babar, no googling. What's the Bible story here? And why might it matter to 3 Jewish rappers from Brooklyn?

When I was first married to Mindy and we went to her family reunion in Kansas (her family is actually from eastern Washington but her great grandparents had owned land in Kansas and donated it to a Bible camp and at that time they held the family reunion on the grounds every 4 years) there was a young girl with a big golden retriever she said was named Shadrach. I said, "After the Beastie Boys song?"

It was not named after the Beastie Boys song.
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coldforge
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« Reply #235 on: Feb 14, 2012, 08:58:22 AM »

The deeper mistake is treating the Bible as a one-book codification of Christianity (or the Quran of Islam, etc.). It takes its place within a context of interpretation - there are reasons why most Christians ignore the majority of the religious law in the old testament, but take notice of some of it. They are historical reasons, and large parts of the canon exist outside of the Bible, and lots of the Bible only is meaningful within that history.

This is my point, right here. Starting to pull abhorrent Bible quotes is at best shooting fish in a barrel, and at worst setting up grotesque strawmen. In either case, it is severely failing to meet either the edifice of Judaeo-Christianity, or the Bible as a cultural text, in terms of import and resonance. Of course the hard liners who believe that women should be absolutely subservient to their men because it says so in the Bible seem pretty unenlightened to us here. But to walk away from that notion with, 'So you see, the whole tradition [or text, as you like it] in whose context that passage exists is invalid', and to treat the Old and/or New Testaments like a single, monolithic text, that reads the same and is engaged with the same by all of its adherents, is deeply silly, completely ignores the many, many realities on the ground, and is a prime example of the sort of smug, reductive sophistry that one sees from the Reddit crowd so often. It's in bad faith, I think, or at least evident of a very small worldview.

As a side note: it's not just the modern, enlightened, humanistic Abrahamists, the ones who take a foundation of secular liberal values and then sprinkle whatever Judaeo-Christianity will conform on top, who deserve to be apprehended as a culture of thinking, morally-endowed people who are engaging fully with this text. Hang out with a dozen orthodox Jews of any stripe you like and you will encounter fourteen deeply considered, individualized ways of attempting to merge this textual and cultural tradition with the sensibilities of the individual and the mores of the society in which they live. If you like, you can certainly dismiss all orthodox Jews, and all textual Christians, as irrational believers in fairy stories. But I think anybody with an interest or sympathy for human beings (maybe even human beings above reason!) should be able to develop a more nuanced picture of a quality—religious belief—that has existed for every human culture, everywhere, since recorded history.
« Last Edit: Feb 14, 2012, 11:22:23 AM by coldforge » Logged

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fishjim
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« Reply #236 on: Feb 14, 2012, 11:02:05 AM »

^ ^ That's some holy writ up there. Co-sign. ^ ^
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fishjim
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« Reply #237 on: Feb 14, 2012, 11:21:56 AM »

Here's something to get us back on the LOL track.

BLACK SABBATH - The Secret Musical History of Black-Jewish Relations

I'm actually curious to see the exhibit, but really, someone needs to clue the curator into the Beastie Boys.
« Last Edit: Feb 14, 2012, 11:26:11 AM by fishjim » Logged

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Babar
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« Reply #238 on: Feb 14, 2012, 11:29:01 AM »

^ ^ That's some holy writ up there. Co-sign. ^ ^

Yeah, very well said. I wasn't trying to make an end-all be-all argument about why Christianity is wrong. It's just when you have thousands of different types of religion existing in human history and every one of them deem their own as the correct one, for me the logical conclusion is not that one of them holds the truth and everything else is made up but that religion is an evolutionary by-product that all human societies tend to develop and, as knowledge has accumulated over the years, it has now proven an obsolete notion, much like the appendix is an obsolete organ. I think it's a much more logical conclusion than saying "forget that guy Odin, forget Zeus, forget Shiva, forget Huitzilopochtli, forget Zarathustra, now this guy JESUS is where it's at!". No, these are all myths. Religious scriptures in general are written in such a way they can be interpreted in many ways and should be viewed in a historical context when doing so but there's nothing more exceptional about one religion over the other. One of the main reason religion is still prominent in the modernized Western world is because people are hesitant to break tradition, but I think just because something has been done by countless generations before isn't good enough reason to do anything. If everybody had that mindset about everything, humanity would never progress. So when the 24th century comes around I hope religion will have phased out naturally. This was my .02 dollars and you can go back discussing politics.
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coldforge
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« Reply #239 on: Feb 14, 2012, 11:44:26 AM »

But Babar, what you should do is take the evolutionary angle and follow it to its conclusion. If you want to take an evolutionary-functionalist approach to religion, then precisely what you're proposing is that the purpose, the function, of religion—Christian or otherwise—is not to reveal the True Way to humanity. If you were yourself a religionist, then you could argue that is the purpose, and then you could argue that your favorite religion fulfills that aim. And then you could talk about truth-values and myths. But if you are a functionalist, then you should ask: what role does religion play in the individual human experience? Societally, it does lots of stuff—often that stuff is quite bad. But what does it provide for the individual?

I would find it very, very hard to argue that the human mind has evolved appreciably in the last 2500 years such that religion no longer fulfills a human need. The notion that it's just this massive cultural accretion—that NOW we've finally gotten it right, NOW we know how to live, forget all other cultures that have passed into time, now this SECULAR TECHNOCRATIC HUMANISM is where it's at!—it seems a bit short-sighted to me.

Mind you, my parallel-drawing here is not to take those 'atheism is just a faith like theism' tacks. But simply to establish that the fundamental appeal of religion is a fulfillment of basic, biologically supervenient human needs; and you can try to fulfill those needs with secular rather than religious cultural apparati—psychoanalysis rather than confession, raves rather than mass—but as a human technology, there's an awful lot of interesting, engaging stuff to it. You don't have to partake in any of it but I think that evaluating religious activity based simply on the question of 'the claims this culture makes about the universe: are they true?' is a 1-dimensional apprehension of a zillion-dimensional cultural manifestation.
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DCDave
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« Reply #240 on: Feb 14, 2012, 12:43:14 PM »

I think that evaluating religious activity based simply on the question of 'the claims this culture makes about the universe: are they true?' is a 1-dimensional apprehension of a zillion-dimensional cultural manifestation.

Co-sign.
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RoyBiggins
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« Reply #241 on: Feb 14, 2012, 01:18:06 PM »

Thirded.
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coldforge
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« Reply #242 on: Feb 14, 2012, 01:29:16 PM »

I say this, by the way, as what could probably best be called a religious atheist.
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elpollodiablo
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« Reply #243 on: Feb 14, 2012, 01:31:21 PM »

I would cosign that as someone who has basically no truck with spirituality whatever.
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Thermofusion
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« Reply #244 on: Feb 14, 2012, 01:31:31 PM »

I evaluate religion in this way: even though I don't personally have a relationship with a god in the Western sense, my relationship with the society in which I operate is fundamentally dependent on (even dictated by) other people's relationships with a "god." A god I don't give any credence to. I find that to be, you know, a fucking absurd situation. Unfortunately I don't have the interest or the time to get into a discussion about it with you guys.
« Last Edit: Feb 14, 2012, 01:34:47 PM by Thermofusion » Logged

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Thermofusion
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« Reply #245 on: Feb 14, 2012, 01:32:27 PM »

I'm gonna go dress in black and read The Stranger now
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fishjim
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« Reply #246 on: Feb 14, 2012, 01:33:55 PM »

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fishjim
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« Reply #247 on: Feb 14, 2012, 01:35:22 PM »

^ ^ That's in good fun, Thermo. Love ya too.  Heart
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Thermofusion
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« Reply #248 on: Feb 14, 2012, 01:43:07 PM »

aight!
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Antero
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« Reply #249 on: Feb 14, 2012, 02:52:31 PM »

I agree with coldforge, save insofar as I think that evolutionary-functionalist approaches to society are wholly bunk.
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