Kanye West Is Alive and Well and Living in Paris [The Rap Thread]

[shai faithe]

ha ha
the lacanian diagram in asci is:

OOO  ______     ______\   cocaine/zizek
OAO           |     |         /   
OOO           |___|
               hip hop

no it doesn't make sense here either.

i think we should keep in mind that some very interesting art has been produced by looking backwards, especially via mythmaking about that past--ie, that the past that never really existed, is wholly unimportant insofar as those "repeating" it take it to be real. also, when the homage is totally off seems to be when it's most likely to succeed as something new. (i'm reminded of how cy twombly's original scribble paintings were indirect copies of pollack's splatter works. twombly thought pollock was introducing a new form of ecriture, and he wanted to practice it. also, some of john cage's early works were direct homages to the european noisemakers that preceded him, ditto rauschenberg c/o the ab exers again.)
and how are we drawing lines here, what's backward looking and what isn't? madlib and dilla are strict elementalists, but nevertheless manage to push things in interesting directions. the same of gonjasufi as a beatsmith. likewise blu, exile, doom. the commitment to craft here seems to be the defining difference between those "repeaters" that we like and those we condemn. the former camp (those listed, others) are so dedicated to producing music within a very specific paradigm that they inevitably become very good at what they do. the sort of grumpy underground that none of us seem to like often only has a nebulous idea (perhaps an intuition) about their reference points, and doesn't seem to take time to develop a rigorous practice around the genres and instruments that created their references. in this way, you're right ak, it's merely surface; it's lip surface. but let's not confuse diligent recreation with copycatting. again, the former plumbs the depths so studiously that it's almost bound to bring up something new, even without effort. the latter is a retread.

[shai faithe]

damn i love talking about this stuff! where's our blog maing?

[Antero]

I like Pitchfork's "Selector" web series, but the guy who hosts it inspires an overwhelming, irresistible punching impulse.

[Antero]

and how are we drawing lines here, what's backward looking and what isn't?

It's important to distinguish backwards-looking from relating-back.  All art is part of a lineage; experimental forms of art might even be seen as more consciously participating in their lineage than others.  Backwards-looking art, though, is simply trying to recreate the past.

the commitment to craft here seems to be the defining difference between those "repeaters" that we like and those we condemn. the former camp (those listed, others) are so dedicated to producing music within a very specific paradigm that they inevitably become very good at what they do. the sort of grumpy underground that none of us seem to like often only has a nebulous idea (perhaps an intuition) about their reference points, and doesn't seem to take time to develop a rigorous practice around the genres and instruments that created their references.

I think that's definitely a contributing factor.  There's something beyond diligence, though - you CAN do good work with simple signifiers if you have a strong aesthetic.

Some of the guys you listed as not-modern-but-still-good are kind of outside of the debate due to their age - Doom, after all, got started in rap in the 80s, and his artistic success since then has been due to the way he, as a rapper, goes beyond the Golden Age paradigm. 

[jebreject]

and how are we drawing lines here, what's backward looking and what isn't?

It's important to distinguish backwards-looking from relating-back.  All art is part of a lineage; experimental forms of art might even be seen as more consciously participating in their lineage than others.  Backwards-looking art, though, is simply trying to recreate the past.

Unless I'm not quite following you here, this still seems pretty tricky -- just how do we make that distinction? Isn't it pretty difficult to say, oh, here, this artist is referencing (or relating-back, in your terms) past works in the lineage, but this artist is trying to recreate them--without getting into intent? Granted, the Real Hip Hop folks tend to wear their intent on their sleeves, but it still all seems pretty murky to me, and often enough breaks down to what you the listener happen to like better.

I mean, beyond that, though, the murkiness of distinguishing, I agree with you wholly, not just w/r/t hip hop/rap, but all genres. It happens a lot in my own genre ghetto of choice, that is, indie/underground/punk rock.

[jebreject]

Changing gears:

Have you guys read this yet? http://pitchfork.com/features/articles/8793-we-invented-swag/

[Antero]

Cool topic but dear god Pitchfork needs some better reporters.

[jebreject]

I didn't think it was that bad!

[Babar]

No Jeb you are wrong and you should feel bad for liking anything on that website. 

[Antero]

I didn't think it was that bad!

The people are really cool and I am totally going to check out their music, the article is just like "HERE'S ONE. HERE IS ANOTHER ONE."

[Antero]

TOTALLY NOT COOL

[Ignatius]

No way that is the coolest thing I have heard all day

[dieblucasdie]

[shai faithe]

Unless I'm not quite following you here, this still seems pretty tricky -- just how do we make that distinction? Isn't it pretty difficult to say, oh, here, this artist is referencing (or relating-back, in your terms) past works in the lineage, but this artist is trying to recreate them--without getting into intent? Granted, the Real Hip Hop folks tend to wear their intent on their sleeves, but it still all seems pretty murky to me, and often enough breaks down to what you the listener happen to like better.

sorry to resurrect if this is dead, but this is exactly the point i was trying to make.
also, with respect to doom. he's sort of like busta in that he's been trapped between times, and is able to work within a lot of different contexts. but as doomsday appropriates huge swaths of 36 chambers, and given that his first album has remained his template for his others (excepting the viktor vaughn series), i would argue that he's most definitely well-steeped in his lineage. he's not a great example simply because now, fifteen years later, he's considered a god by a lot of folk (including me), so it's hard to relate to him in the same way that i do someone like kweli (who i don't like). however, had i been old enough to use big words in 1996, i would've raised the same questions. and, if you remember, back when you put us on to main attrakionz and OF, i objected to them as backwards-looking, though in many ways unintentionally so (this is more complicated with regard to squadda b). their evolution over the past few years has cemented them in the "relating-back" camp, but for some, i'm sure this is still tenuous.
AND AND AND--it occurs to me--where does lil b fit into all of this, seeing as many of his releases are aiming to recreate very specific scenes and moments in hip hop? this seems to be your exact definition of "backwards-looking." does he get a pass because his intent (which as jeb mentioned, is so sticky as to have been abandoned decades ago in critical circles) is something else? if he is doing something broader, what separates him from the neo-expressionist pastiche painters of the 1980s, carelessly and only with minimal critical awareness appropriating all sorts of painterly symbols from throughout history--and if you want to blow up the spot, what separates the artforms of net 2.0 (pop-up tumblrs, flickr streams, mash-up, data mosh, LIL B) from pastiche AT ALL? are we back to judgments of quality? fuck that: headache time.

[milly balgeary]

Here we go, death grips. You have come to me!

[Chet]

how should whites talk about hip hop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHnS2gDJEPY

[milly balgeary]

He doesn't look white to me

[jebreject]

without even living in the south

[Chet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ogHIA79lJ0

[shai faithe]

is the white blah blah blah blah hip hop conversation one that we can stop having or hey maybe even yaknow allude to having cool thanks.

also not sure where that came from.

[Thermofusion]

is the white blah blah blah blah hip hop conversation one that we can stop having or hey maybe even yaknow allude to having cool thanks.

also not sure where that came from.

fucking seriously man, qft

[dieblucasdie]

Man, I totally need to go see Death Grips when they come through in June.

[jebreject]

Oh shit, yes. Why the fuck does it gotta be on a Wednesday though? Fuuuuck.

[Antero]

They aren't even coming through San Francisco, dammit.   

[Chet]

did i mention that they're playing here next month in an abandoned office block?