the trials & tribulations of going vegan.

[lucky strike]

thanks for those links, dude. i just lost a serious amount of weight 'cause i got sick and also replaced my meals with cigarettes and killian's irish red. i need to quit smoking and drinking and get back in shape.

[dieblucasdie]

i got sick and also replaced my meals with cigarettes and killian's irish red.

Next fad diet?  God I hope so.

[lucky strike]

all i know is i'm 116 pounds right now. it worked like a charm and i had fun while doing it!

[dusty]

but, if i really wanted to attack vegans as a "life movement", which apparently it is, it would be easy.  for starters, veganism is merely the luxury of those people living in the richest eschelon of nations.  you will not find vegans in the third world.  they don't have the freedom to exclude entire categories of food sources from their diet, or they'd fucking die.  go to these places, and you will find a bunch of evil, rotten "meateaters" like myself.  sure, they may be bushmen on the savannahs in africa, but dammnit, they're hunting & eating wildebeest, so screw 'em.  we're so much better.  central europe, africa, asia, the pacfic, the arctic circle: all of them eat meat, and in some cases, total shitloads.  sometimes it's fish, sometimes it's an antelope, sometimes it's a seal.  but it's meat, and so they're evil.  in these places, eating meat is completely natural, and it's part of their survival.  

Well look at this... my first ever post, and it's gonna be a belated, Thermo-quoting, possibly argumentative, probably self-righteous retort. mmm.

What I felt compelled to add to this discussion is that Thermofusion's argument above is pretty much the precise reason that i AM a vegetarian. I don't eat meat because it is easy for me not to. I live in the first world. Lucky me! I don't have to spend time worrying about moment-to-moment survival. So I can afford to worry about nasty farming practices and those poor little cutey animals etc. Y'know, it seems silly to be totally essentialist when it comes to vege/veganism, and ethics in general.

I like to avoid meat because it's a feasible way for me to reduce harm to others. I belong to the "do what you can" school of do-goodery. If it wasn't easy I probably wouldn't do it.

So yeah, hi all!

[Nicholson]

Yeah, honestly, the idea that something's somehow invalidated as a moral perspective because the only people who can do it easily are first-worlders seems completely flawed. The whole privileged background just places more of an onus to do the right thing. The cruelty issue doesn't apply so much in questions of survival.  The defense of "meat is food and when I can get food, I eat it" is considerably different from "meat is tasty."

I say this as a meat-eater.

[Ah_Pook]

"meat is tasty" is a pretty good argument

[freshbakedpi]

Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherfuckers!

[jebreject]

1. thermo actually has a lot of really great points in that post.  we are afforded the luxory to be vegan, or whatever, and no, most people in the third world (or third world-like sections of our own country, which exist both in every major city and many rural areas) just plain couldn't survive on a vegan diet.  shopping vegan (or organic, or whatever) is expensive, time-consuming, and, well, truth be told, pretty damn bourgeois too.  but i don't think any of the vegans (or whatever) here are trying to convert all the carnivores of the world.  personally, i'm not trying to convert anyone.  personally, i think animal rights activists are missing the bigger picture.  do i think the world would be a better place if everyone was vegan?  eh, maybe, but probably not.  it would definitely be a better place without factory farming and unnecessary suffering, though.

2.  crystal, thanks for the new signature.

[Andrew_TSKS]

about the first world vs third world argument--for me, it's the cruelty inherent in factory farming that is the real problem with meat eating. it's not just that the animal dies and is eaten for food, it's the fact that its entire life is taken away from it so it can sit in a fucking box and spend its whole life waiting to be food. if all farming was still "free-range" like it was 200 years ago, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't be vegetarian. in fact, last year my parents got a free-range turkey for thanksgiving and i had some. i am not gonna be buying any free-range meat anytime soon because it's expensive and i can just as easily go without, but i didn't feel bad about eating the stuff they bought. in africa, when bushmen kill wildebeests, those wildebeests had a normal life up until that point, and honestly other predators would be just as likely to catch them as humans. i don't see nearly the cruelty inherent in this process that i do in modern american meat production.

i hope that makes some sense.

[jebreject]

wow, i missed a whole page.  oh well.

i really wanted to go off on a tangent about identity politics but decided not to at the last moment.

[davy]

i hope that makes some sense.

it does to me.

and yay for the new guy from new zealand!

[freshbakedpi]

1. thermo actually has a lot of really great points in that post.  we are afforded the luxory to be vegan, or whatever, and no, most people in the third world (or third world-like sections of our own country, which exist both in every major city and many rural areas) just plain couldn't survive on a vegan diet.

That is not true. People receiving food rations and government food aid receive fortified vegan foods because legumes, grains & grain products like flours, nuts & seeds contain the basic essentials for function, are cheap and have a long shelf life.

 

shopping vegan (or organic, or whatever) is expensive, time-consuming, and, well, truth be told, pretty damn bourgeois too.

I don't know where you shop, but last time I checked at safeway you could get a lb of any grain or legume for a buck each. That could feed you for a month! How much is your chicken?

Most Bourgeois I know shop at costco, eat a lot of cereal & frozen meals, eat meat at every meal and consider potatos a "grain."

But I live in Seattle. It's obviously very different where you come from.

[FreddyKnuckles]

salad instead of soup before your steak.

boy, talk like that'll get y'all rounded up and sent to the looney bin on accusation of bein' a homosex.

[crystalcakes]

 

shopping vegan (or organic, or whatever) is expensive, time-consuming, and, well, truth be told, pretty damn bourgeois too.

I don't know where you shop, but last time I checked at safeway you could get a lb of any grain or legume for a buck each. That could feed you for a month! How much is your chicken?

Most Bourgeois I know shop at costco, eat a lot of cereal & frozen meals, eat meat at every meal and consider potatos a "grain."

But I live in Seattle. It's obviously very different where you come from.

in nyc- i would agree with jeb.  here the boojies shop at whole foods and buy 5 dollar boxes of pasta and every kind of organic fruit and veggie you can imagine.  organic, skim milk for the kids and free range meat all the way.  in 5 square blocks there are 4 healthy, organic grocery stores that are all pretty expensive.  the cheapo places don't carry flaxseed oil and tofutti cuties or even extensive veggies.  and very few people here can afford a place with an outside area for gardening.

so, if you wanted to be a vegan that just eats rice and beans and potatoes and bread, you could do that on the cheap.  but judging from the post that started all of this, that doesn't seem like too good of an idea though.

[John]

so, we worry about where & how to shop so as not to appear "bourgeois"? hopin' everybody'll forgive my saying so, but such a claim is itself the very quintessence of bourgeois, and only the bourgeoisie would bother to think about such questions at all

[dieblucasdie]

Not to mention that you ain't gonna get any more bourgeois than posting on internet message boards.

But yeah, I'm a vegetarian and I shop at Aldi, for chrissakes.  I go by Whole Foods to pick up Boca and Tofu, but that's it.

Speaking of which, they just shut down one of the Chicago Whole Foods because it has a rat infestation.  Rat infestations != bourgeois.

And like pi said, beef, chicken and pork are mad expensive compared to beans and rice, or even tofu.

[freshbakedpi]

in nyc- i would agree with jeb.  here the boojies shop at whole foods and buy 5 dollar boxes of pasta and every kind of organic fruit and veggie you can imagine.  

Heh. If ONLY the shoppers of Whole Foods were representative of Middle America! What problems would the world have anymore??? "Is America getting TOO Healthy? Is your coffee REALLY Free Trade!? NEXT! on the new Fox Public Television!" Most of the people who shop at Whole Foods aren't even vegan! Vegetarians make up only 2% of the population!

Look, I get the idea But the fact remains that veganism is not a luxury and (unfortunately? ) not bourgeois. It's a diet herbivores CHOOSE (don't worry! it's NOT CONTAGIOUS!) for a variety of reasons. Mine, like many others, is "D: All of the above." Still people continue to be offended by my choice to eat unoffensive foods, finding new and imaginative reasons every day (I have not heard this "bourgeois" accusation before! you get a great big vegan cookie for originality jeb ). As sand through the hourglass... I'll still be enjoying my fried tofu and chocolate soymilk.

if you wanted to be a vegan that just eats rice and beans and potatoes and bread, you could do that on the cheap.  but judging from the post that started all of this, that doesn't seem like too good of an idea though.

Add some tofu, nuts, veggies, grains other than rice and soymilk and bingo! You got the average vegan diet! Cheap, healthy & tasty!  8) Veganism: it's a GREAT idea!

/edited:

Ok! The crazy vegan girl is turning off her computer now! I promise!

[crystalcakes]

so, we worry about where & how to shop so as not to appear "bourgeois"? hopin' everybody'll forgive my saying so, but such a claim is itself the very quintessence of bourgeois, and only the bourgeoisie would bother to think about such questions at all

oh i don't worry about it.  i was just saying that in nyc that is what the type of person buys generally.  not meat and potatoes at the safeway or whatever.

did anyone see that article (in the nyt i think?) about the guy who started whole foods??  it made me want to stop shopping there all together but  i have very little will power.  he was all about reaganomics and bilking the children of hippies out of their cash.  

i am currently obsessed with fresh direct (it may only be up here) which comes right to my apartment so i don't even have to go anywhere.  amazing.  i am not rich.  not vegan.  and only half american.  but i have good taste!

and for the record there are several non-first world countries where meat is considered a rich delicasy.  where my dad grew up it was mainly vegetarian and sometimes vegan.  meat was a rare gift.  in high school when i had veggie friends he would insist on not cooking or eating meat when they were around because it was thought of as rude.  in his case more because you didn't want to rub it in someone's face that they didn't have meat, but it's just this idea i am referring too.  the first time he drank cow milk was in america.  it may have also been the first time he had beef.  he had certainly never seen pork or 99% of seafood types either.  but he makes the best hummus you'll ever eat.  

i am rambling.  there were points in there, i swear.

[jebreject]

hey dude john i think you read me the wrong way.  i'm not saying we should be concerned with being bourgeois or worrying where to shop.  i was just saying that a damn lot of people (myself included) can't afford to shop at, say, whole foods or even the local co-op.  

and to freshbakedpi:  you got me wrong, too.  i certainly wasn't making an argument against vegetarianism/veganism, just trying to say it's not entirely realistic to think that the whole world could or even should go vegan at this point in time, and, anyway, we have more important battles to fight.  be vegan, that's a great personal choice to make, but that's all it is.  that "vote with your dollar" bullshit is just that, bullshit.  the world isn't that simple.  me choosing not to eat meat (which is a choice i made five or six years ago and have stuck with) is NOT a political act.  it might be a spiritual one, and politics come into play when making such a decision, but on its own, the only person that's really affected is ME.  

and yeah, if you want to eat nothin' but beans and rice, go right ahead, that's plenty cheap.  but not exactly a well-rounded vegan diet, is it?

[jebreject]

Look, I get the idea But the fact remains that veganism is not a luxury and (unfortunately? ) not bourgeois. It's a diet herbivores CHOOSE (don't worry! it's NOT CONTAGIOUS!) for a variety of reasons.

It's a luxory because it's a choice that not everyone can afford to make.  And, I hate to say it, but most of the vegans I know are crusty punks from suburban backgrounds or bourgeois liberal types.  Not sayin' there's anything wrong with it, just sayin'.  Think about the average vegan versus the average Joe Sixpack meat-eating American.  They don't exactly come from the same places now, do they?  (Once again, not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule, there certainly are!)

Still people continue to be offended by my choice to eat unoffensive foods, finding new and imaginative reasons every day (I have not heard this "bourgeois" accusation before! you get a great big vegan cookie for originality jeb ). As sand through the hourglass... I'll still be enjoying my fried tofu and chocolate soymilk.

Who's offended?  Certainly not me!  Once again, I think you misconstrued what I was saying in the first place.  And I'd love me a vegan cookie.

Add some tofu, nuts, veggies, grains other than rice and soymilk and bingo! You got the average vegan diet! Cheap, healthy & tasty!  8) Veganism: it's a GREAT idea!

Cheap is relative, evidently.  I know I can't afford to shop entirely vegan right now.  Especially if I want to have some variety in my diet, rather than the various barebones rice and pasta dishes I always end up making.

[jebreject]

It would be fun, however, to rate things based on their bourgeois-ness.

No?

Oh, okay.  Sorry.

[swilkes]

I think this was covered by...somebody upthread, and I don't want to sink into troll feeding, or whatever, but I hate seeing ignorance get reinforced, so I had to pop in & reemphasize:  the whole assumption that "third worlders" eat meat is downright INCORRECT. cf. India, many millions in rural China, and hey guess what, there's lots more being eaten in central Africa besides wildebeests--sorghum, millet, plantains, yams--all "poverty food", all plantlife. I'm a little tetchy about the "third worlders" eating meat strawman, myself, because you're really constructing a mythical character based on really limited assumptions about global poverty. YES people living in desperate poverty don't have a lot of choice in foodstuffs, BUT that limited choice actually in most of the world consists, with the possible exception of the Arctic Circle, primarily of lentils & suchlike legumes, grains, starches, and cheap greens like cabbages. Other than, like I said, the arctic circle, I don't know where people are getting the idea that people in the 3rd world (which is an outdated term, but "developing countries" is kinda problematic too) "have to" eat meat, but it seems pretty persistent. I think it's a 19th/20th c. thing: a lot of the world where beef is eaten, including Japan and some parts of China, adopted the habit from the British in the 19th c...in fact I think it was the British who instilled into the world (including everyone reading this, since we're all anglophones) the idea that a daily ration is incomplete w/out meat.

I better shut up now & go to bed before I get into a diatribe about globalization, diet, world health, postcolonialism, grain lobbies and Big Ag and the WTO and...aaaah!  

oh wait p.s., if you're still hung up on the "bougie" stain of meat alternatives: a pound of lentils at Safeway is like $0.79. Just sayin'.  :wink:

[jebreject]

i'm not hungup on anything!  gar!

but thanks for that post.

i really need to go to sleep now.

[swilkes]

oh shit i just reread what I said and I think I shouldn't've said "troll feeding". Nobody's a troll! I love you all! Hugs!        I just meant that when I see something that looks ignint, or looks like it's turning into a rollercoaster of ignince, I gotta entlighten, you know?

[jebreject]

see i think my problem is that i like arguing so much that i don't bother qualifying anything or letting y'all know that i believe (generally) the same stuff as you.  werd about the "third worlders eating meat" thing being a strawman, and i'm sorry for playing into it.  as far as the bougie stuff, i'm not hung-up, i'm just trying to say that a lot of the time, that's the type of person who decides to go vegetarian/vegan, and there's gotta be a reason for it, right?  even if it's because those people are more "socially conscious," there has to be a reason for that, too.  and forgive me for showing my class struggle bullshit, but i think a lot of it's economic/class-related, and that means that it can be combatted/overcome.  i just don't think that trying to convince everyone to go vegan is the proper first step toward a better world.  i dunno.  there are bigger (fake) fish to fry.