Old Harry Potter Thread (NO SPOILERS OR POOK STABS YOU)

[dieblucasdie]

I finished this last night, so I want to talk about.  I know a few of you mentioned it in other threads, but meh.

First off, please please no posts of the "I'm too cool and cynical for Harry Potter" variety (devilchicken, I'm looking your direction).   However, "Harry Potter Teaches Kids To Be Satanists" posts are welcome, because they're hilarious.  Also, wild speculation on the 7th book is highly encouraged. 

But yeah, I don't know why so many things I've read are down on Half-Blood Prince.  I thought it was quite good, better than Order of the Pheonix, in fact, by quite a wide margin.  It's not as action-packed as previous volumes, but it's worth it to get the backstory on Voldemort.  This book had a lot of work to do in setting the stage for the 7th book, and it did it well. 

My wild speculation:
1)  Dumbledore was dying from the potion, he and Snape are both accomplished at the Legilmancy/Occlumency jive, so he told Snape to kill him, so he would be in a better position to help Harry later, and to keep Draco from crossing the line from annoying little bitch into evil evil man.

2)  Again, think of the Pheonix imagery that's always surrounded Dumbledore.  He'll be back in some form, my guess is that Harry will go back to the Department of Mysteries and go beyond that veil thingy.  This would make sense; A trip to the underworld/afterlife fits the whole epic/bildungsroman thing.

3)  RAB is totally Amelia Bones.  When they introduced her in OoP, I knew they were setting her up to be more important later on.  She died between 5 and 6, and it didn't seem like a throwaway detail.  Harry's gonna pick up on the her work tracking down the Horcruci... er Horcruxes

4)  Harry is totally gay for Ron.  Obviously JK would never reeeeallly do this, but Harry crushing on Ginny is the classic literary device for disappating the homosocial stuff.

[nonotyet]

I haven't read the new one but ARGH IT WAS SPOILED FOR ME ALREADY (wait, it was partially spoiled here, but I read it someplace else too). Course when I told my friend this she said it was very important HOW Dumbledore dies, and so I guess I just went and fucked myself, there. That's really all I have to contribute.

Oh and I used to be cynical about them when I was a bookseller until I worked the midnight sale for the fifth one at a corporate bookstore of doom what shall remain nameless, and I was in a stupid hat and Harry Potter glasses and there were like 5000000000000 kids running around and they were so damn excited and happy, about A BOOK! and I thought: "Maybe there's something to this."
And lo: There was.

[dieblucasdie]

haha, yeah, my gf and I went to the midnight sale at the best bookstore in Chicago, and the kids were freakin' adorable.  The had a Harry Potter Spelling Bee, and this little girl dressed as Tonks (pink wig and a homemade "Weird Sisters" t-shirt) won, hilariously beating two 25 year-old lesbians.  

And nonetyet, I put spoilers in thread title thinking specifically of you!  Why did you look!

[nonotyet]

'Cause I'm a sucker?

EDIT: Also, I do this for everything. I believe I've said this before, but I am the worst person to watch movies with EVER because I'm all like "WHAT HAPPENS NOW OMG WHERE IS HE GOING WITH THAT THING OMG DOES HE DIE WHY ARE THEY SEXX0RING HE HAS A KNIFE WHAT HAPPENS NOW OMG?" I don't do this with books, obviously, but if they are as big as this and I am meaning to read them I will actively seek out spoilers so I know what's coming. It's a weird non-logic that makes perfect sense to me. Also there's a difference between someone telling me in one line what happens and having it spelled or played out in more words than that. It can still be affecting.

[Andrew_TSKS]

3)  RAB is totally Amelia Bones.  When they introduced her in OoP, I knew they were setting her up to be more important later on.  She died between 5 and 6, and it didn't seem like a throwaway detail.  Harry's gonna pick up on the her work tracking down the Horcruci... er Horcruxes.

no way. i think it's sirius black's brother.

also:

But yeah, I don't know why so many things I've read are down on Half-Blood Prince. I thought it was quite good, better than Order of the Pheonix, in fact, by quite a wide margin. It's not as action-packed as previous volumes, but it's worth it to get the backstory on Voldemort. This book had a lot of work to do in setting the stage for the 7th book, and it did it well.

i thought this one was if anything tighter and more exciting than "order of the phoenix". and while it may not have been action packed in the conventional sense, there was CONSTANTLY something important going on. school life was almost a non-issue; therefore i felt like this book was very close to not even being a young adult book anymore, and i can't imagine that the seventh one will read like anything other than an adult fantasy novel. which means it will be interesting to see how the kid readership reacts to it. hell, it'll be interesting to see what the reaction from that demographic to half-blood prince is.

[dieblucasdie]

3)  RAB is totally Amelia Bones.  When they introduced her in OoP, I knew they were setting her up to be more important later on.  She died between 5 and 6, and it didn't seem like a throwaway detail.  Harry's gonna pick up on the her work tracking down the Horcruci... er Horcruxes.

no way. i think it's sirius black's brother.

Wow, you are totally right and I am totally wrong.  I think the kids will react well to it though.  You have to remember that the kids who first read Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone are growing up along with the series.

Anyway, on that subject, there's a ridiculously cute NPR story here where they interview a girl just after she's stayed up all night after the midnight sale to finish HBP.  I think the kid reaction is mainly going to be crying their eyes out when Dumbledore dies, 'cause kids aren't experienced enough readers to see that coming.  The mentor-figure HAS to die so the hero faces the final battle alone.

[Andrew_TSKS]

good point about the kid reaction. they are going to be shocked by dumbledore's death. i love that it happens though. a lot of children's literature tells kids that really bad shit never happens, that everything's going to be ok. we all know that sometimes in life bad shit DOES happen, and sometimes things are NOT ok. i like that that lesson is introduced into the books. and yeah, you gotta face your battles alone in life, so that's another good reason for the lesson. but i also agree with you in that all the phoenix imagery makes me kinda expect dumbledore to come back. then again, there was room for sirius to come back, and he didn't (and thank goodness. i'd have felt ripped off if he had). so we'll see.

[FreddyKnuckles]

I'm telling you.  If I wrote these books, I'd get the kids hooked, then in the 7th book they'd all get brutally murdered.  Not by magic, we're talking chainsaws and flamethrowers here--all in the first five pages.  Then there would be a hundred pages or so of ash cleaning and carnage mopping.

[Nickosaurus]

NO CHAINSAW CAN DEFEAT A TRUE WIZARD!

PS - I'm sure that Snape was under Dumbledore's orders to gain voldemort's trust and protect malfoy by whatever means nessicary.

[dieblucasdie]

If I were JK, I'd end it with Harry usurping Voldemort and becoming the Dark Lord himself, KOTOR-style.  That would be badass.

Snape is the best character.  I love the in-between space he occupies.  The Order doesn't trust him fully, but they defer to Dumbledore's judgement.  The Death Eaters don't trust him fully, but they defer to Voldemort's judgement.  

One other thing:  All you Lit majors should well know that prophecies in literature NEVER mean what they appear to mean.

[nonotyet]

If I were JK, I'd end it with Harry usurping Voldemort and becoming the Dark Lord himself, KOTOR-style.  That would be badass.

!!!

Listen, George Lucas, I don't know what KOTOR stands for but you be smoking a rarefied and special kind of crack.

[FreddyKnuckles]

If I were JK, I'd end it with Harry usurping Voldemort and becoming the Dark Lord himself, KOTOR-style.  That would be badass.

Snape is the best character.  I love the in-between space he occupies.  The Order doesn't trust him fully, but they differ to Dumbledore's judgement.  The Death Eaters don't trust him fully, but they differ to Voldemort's judgement.  

One other thing:  All you Lit majors should well know that prophecies in literature NEVER mean what they appear to mean.

that's assuming that the series will actually end.

I see like 40 books, watered down drivel after about 11, JK stops actually writing them around 15, and some Danny Devito-esque actor will play the 45 year old Harry from book 38.

[dieblucasdie]

Well, she's been very forceful about the fact that 7 will be the last.

And nonotyet, my ending rules!  And it's not likely, I know that.  It would end with like, Malfoy and all the Death Eaters bowing before him.  He'd have to murder Hagrid to take the mantle of the Dark Lord.  TELL ME that wouldn't rule.

[FreddyKnuckles]

oh yeah, don't mistake my posting here for me actually having even the slightest shred of knowledge about these books, other than what I've just been reading.

Are you already done working?

I just got up, and pulled the fountain soda that came with my pizza from last night out of the fridge.  All of the ice melted, so it's overflowing, and watery, and flat.  but its liquid, which is good enough for me.

[Andrew_TSKS]

I'm sure that Snape was under Dumbledore's orders to gain voldemort's trust and protect malfoy by whatever means nessicary.

i'm not at all sure of that. i've always hated snape and i feel that his true nature has now been revealed.

[Andrew_TSKS]

The Order doesn't trust him fully, but they differ to Dumbledore's judgement.  The Death Eaters don't trust him fully, but they differ to Voldemort's judgement.

you mean "defer".

sorry, that was obnoxious. but still.

also, i hate the idea of harry becoming evil. not to mention the sheer implausibility factor.

[william]

[quote:" Andrew_TSKS"]dieblucasdie wrote:
The Order doesn't trust him fully, but they differ to Dumbledore's judgement. The Death Eaters don't trust him fully, but they differ to Voldemort's judgement.


you mean "defer".

sorry, that was obnoxious. but still.

also, i hate the idea of harry becoming evil. not to mention the sheer implausibility factor.[/quote]

'differ' can be used here and still make sense

[Andrew_TSKS]

no it can't. it could if he'd said "differ from" but he said "differ to", which makes it obvious that he meant "defer".

[FreddyKnuckles]

[Andrew_TSKS]

exactly.

[dieblucasdie]

I'm disgusted with myself.  That's what happens when I post something fast on the way out the door.

I KNOW it's implausible.  It's only slighty more plausible than the chainsaw ending, which is why I brought it up.  

Harry is going to have to have a flirtation and rejection with the Dark Arts, though.  His powers come from his mother's love, and Voldemort's hatred equally.  

How can you hate Snape, Andrew?  I've always love the fact that the Harry Potter books have a character who HATES the protagonist with all his soul, but still isn't necessarily evil.

[Andrew_TSKS]

i don't like assholes. which seems elementary to me, but the older i get, the more i realize that assholes have a strange attraction for a lot of people, perhaps even a majority of the population. so yeah, i guess i'm weird.

[dieblucasdie]

i don't like assholes. which seems elementary to me, but the older i get, the more i realize that assholes have a strange attraction for a lot of people, perhaps even a majority of the population. so yeah, i guess i'm weird.

Well, thing is, Snape has a good reason to dislike Harry.  James Potter was a total dick to him.   He's toiled away at wizardry and gained no respect, while everyone loves Harry automatically without him really earning it.  He's worked hard to redeem himself but he's still reviled by Sirius, Harry, and Lupin, and treated with indifference by everyone else.  He's the classic outsider!  

If for the sake of argument we say he's only been following Dumbledore's orders this whole time, far being an asshole, he's been risking his life on a daily basis for the Order of the Pheonix.  I just like the idea that two people can geniunely HATE each other with one being stamped the GOOD one in the relationship and being stamped the BAD.  Two people with personal differences both working for a greater cause, etc etc.

[nonotyet]

PHOENIX!
GENUINELY!
heh.
No, I totally agree with everything you said re Snape vs Harry. It's so easy to turn everything into black and white and good and EEVIL in kids books. And I know it's awful, but I love how when it came out Gawker ran around calling it, like,  Harry Potter And The Unfortunate Mulatto.
Reading this thread has made me realize that perhaps I should find the Cliffs Notes on GOF and review a bit before I dive into this thing, though.

[RoyBiggins]

One other thing:  All you Lit majors should well know that prophecies in literature NEVER mean what they appear to mean.

Excellent point.  I think that it's especially true in these books: everything looks like it's got a simple solution early in the book, but then it turns out to be something less obvious.  Based on that, I think you may actually have something on Amelia Bones there, because Regulus is almost too obvious.

I'm with Nick regarding Snape, Dumbledore was totally coaxing Snape into doing what had to be done.  Because now, He's right next to voldemort and the death eaters have no reason to doubt his allegience.  He could get all sorts of inside information and stuff, possibly even figuring out where the horcruxes are.  If Dubledore trusted him so implicitly, there's a good chance Snape knows everything Harry does about the horcruxes.

Nonotyet, you remind me of my sister with your spoiler logic.  It does make sense, she's exactly like that.  She also wants to be able to hound you about what you got her for christmas--but under no circumstances does she actually want you to tell her.  It's pretty endearing.