New piece up: Only Time

[Antero]

I, too, wind up performing classical music without any real background in it (choirs, you know), so I always like to read anything about classical music that doesn't assume I know everything already.

We kicked out a Mahler symphony once, that was good times.

Wagner, though - or at least, the Ring cycle stuff - rubs me the wrong way.  Like, musically, without even getting into politics.  It feels like he's trying to manipulate the audience in a rather contrived way, which I suppose he was, and I just react to that sort of thing with anger.

[alex]

Wagner, though - or at least, the Ring cycle stuff - rubs me the wrong way.  Like, musically, without even getting into politics.  It feels like he's trying to manipulate the audience in a rather contrived way, which I suppose he was, and I just react to that sort of thing with anger.

I find it impossible to discuss Wagner without getting into politics, because his entire aesthetics reek so much of German nationalist ideology. Art and ideology are really inseperable for me in this case. Wagner's Ring Cycle is probably the most stomach-turning music I've ever come across, with the possible exception of Rammstein (for exactly the same reasons, incidentally).

Strauss, I have no opinion on (other than "I really don't like operas in general"), but this article almost makes me want to change that. Interesting stuff, John.

[Charming Tedious]

I saw the title and immediately hoped this would be a 10000 word apologia about ENYA and how in 100 years people will recognize her as a true innovator,  and then i would have begged you to let me reprint it as the liner notes to my enya tribute compilation which will be happening any decade now.

Alas.

On a happier note, you have inspired me to open up the piano bench and dust off the old books I haven't tried to play in like 7 years.

[Andrew_TSKS]

I think you should probably look at art with a combination of approaches.  New Criticism wankery has its benefits, because it forces you look at the art closely and separately,

 but I don't think we should look at art without any cultural or historical contexts: how would we then read Uncle Tom's Cabin, or listen to anti-war music, or look at protest art?

FUCKIN' A RIGHT

er, i mean, iawtc

this post reminds me of when i'm talking to someone and they're not sure how to pronounce a word, and they get it right the first time, then correct themselves, and pronounce it wrong.

by which i mean... jeb, i love fervent declarations so much more than internet acronyms. i really hope "FUCKIN' A RIGHT" is what you "mean", not "iawtc".

[Andrew_TSKS]

I find it impossible to discuss Wagner without getting into politics, because his entire aesthetics reek so much of German nationalist ideology. Art and ideology are really inseperable for me in this case. Wagner's Ring Cycle is probably the most stomach-turning music I've ever come across, with the possible exception of Rammstein (for exactly the same reasons, incidentally).

rammstein are german nationalists? i just think of them as innovators of the office-wear school of goth/industrial, so i had no idea about this. is there someplace i can be pointed to read about their politics?

[andronicus]

I find it impossible to discuss Wagner without getting into politics, because his entire aesthetics reek so much of German nationalist ideology. Art and ideology are really inseperable for me in this case. Wagner's Ring Cycle is probably the most stomach-turning music I've ever come across, with the possible exception of Rammstein (for exactly the same reasons, incidentally).

rammstein are german nationalists? i just think of them as innovators of the office-wear school of goth/industrial, so i had no idea about this. is there someplace i can be pointed to read about their politics?

They're actually pretty left-wing, according to themselves.

[Andrew_TSKS]

ok, now i'm REALLY confused. what the hell is up with rammstein?

[jebreject]

i think maybe the point is their imagery, which, from what i remember, is pretty fascist and totalitarian looking.

[andronicus]

I, personally, am against warriors from other planets coming to earth and disemboweling celebrities onstage.  This is why I ask you to support me and sign this petition to ban GWAR.  

Seriously though, Germany has a whole set of issues about totalitarianism that we just don't have in this country; to be frank I think that a band like Rammstein could possibly have the function of appropriating and hopefully defanging a lot of this totalitarian imagery which is deadly serious in Germany, but here would be mostly a joke.  

They've also stated in multiple interviews that Rammstein is strictly nonpolitical, and that their members tend toward the left side of the spectrum.

[alex]

I find it impossible to discuss Wagner without getting into politics, because his entire aesthetics reek so much of German nationalist ideology. Art and ideology are really inseperable for me in this case. Wagner's Ring Cycle is probably the most stomach-turning music I've ever come across, with the possible exception of Rammstein (for exactly the same reasons, incidentally).

rammstein are german nationalists? i just think of them as innovators of the office-wear school of goth/industrial, so i had no idea about this. is there someplace i can be pointed to read about their politics?

No no, the point was not about their political persuasion, but about the aesthetics. I haven't followed the discussion about this in the last 2-3 years, but I'm pretty sure that at least until then, they refused to comment on all things politics (even though they were of course very frequently addressed about this), i.e. used a type of of aesthetics which at least in the German-speaking part of the world is very clearly associated with a certain ideology without ever addressing this fact (as opposed to, say, Laibach, who also play with similar aesthetic elements, but are very clear are about what they're doing). That's my point, not that they themselves are necessarily Nazis, which I don't even think they are.

[alex]

Seriously though, Germany has a whole set of issues about totalitarianism that we just don't have in this country; to be frank I think that a band like Rammstein could possibly have the function of appropriating and hopefully defanging a lot of this totalitarian imagery which is deadly serious in Germany, but here would be mostly a joke.  

They've also stated in multiple interviews that Rammstein is strictly nonpolitical, and that their members tend toward the left side of the spectrum.

You make some really good points. It's not that I disagree with appropriating these symbols - but if you wanna do that, you have to be pretty clear about it, not just use them and say "ah, but there's nothing political about all this, we're just a band". I do think that this can be successfully done (Laibach seem to be doing a pretty good job, for example), but only if you're willing to address what type of symbols you are appropriating here and why you're doing it. Rammstein do none of this; they just do their thing, knowing full well which imagery they're using, but apparently not giving a damn.

[andronicus]

Seriously though, Germany has a whole set of issues about totalitarianism that we just don't have in this country; to be frank I think that a band like Rammstein could possibly have the function of appropriating and hopefully defanging a lot of this totalitarian imagery which is deadly serious in Germany, but here would be mostly a joke.  

They've also stated in multiple interviews that Rammstein is strictly nonpolitical, and that their members tend toward the left side of the spectrum.

You make some really good points. It's not that I disagree with appropriating these symbols - but if you wanna do that, you have to be pretty clear about it, not just use them and say "ah, but there's nothing political about all this, we're just a band". I do think that this can be successfully done (Laibach seem to be doing a pretty good job, for example), but only if you're willing to address what type of symbols you are appropriating here and why you're doing it. Rammstein do none of this; they just do their thing, knowing full well which imagery they're using, but apparently not giving a damn.

I agree.  Rammstein do pretty much borderline copout on this kind of deal.

[Andrew_TSKS]

the german grind band luzifer's mob had to have the posters from their split lp with golgatha printed in another country, and the posters could only be included with import copies of the album. i have the version with the poster, and the reason it got left out is because it depicts the catholic church as nazis, with swastikas on bishop hats and stuff. apparently you can't own or reproduce images of a swastika in germany? that blows my mind.

[jebreject]

evidently trying to forget your history is the way to go?

(please alex don't kill me if i'm way off the mark)

[alex]

evidently trying to forget your history is the way to go?

(please alex don't kill me if i'm way off the mark)

hehehe, no hard feelings whatsoever!

I do disagree, though: While the application of that law can sometimes be more than a little absurd (I know of several people who have been charged on the basis of this law for wearing a t-shirt with a picture of a swastika being thrown into a trash can - though as far as I know, at least none of those cases led to a conviction, but still, bad enough), the basic idea is not to pretend that none of it ever happened, but not to make it happen again. I've certainly never heard of a historical revisionist defending this law - on the contrary, they tend to be very determined to abolish it, while it's anti-fascists who usually defend it. Personally, I think it's neat that the countless nazi-rock bands in Germany cannot just print swastikas all over their record covers (which is not to say that they don't do it anyway - but at least they can, and often do, get into trouble with it and sure can't sell their stuff in regular record stores). I'm also quite happy that the bastards who always draw swastikas on house walls in the city I live in can be convicted of something else than just damage of property, and especially that house-owners can be forced to remove them immediately (whereas "usual" racist slogans tend to stay on very long around here if the house- or shopowners don't care, which is often the case).
The disadvantage is that, yes, it does mean that these symbols also cannot be used in a context outside of glorification. It's a bit tricky, but I'd say that that's probably worth it (though I wouldn't advocate importing these laws into other countries - I just think a bit more sensitivity with such symbols can be demanded in Austria and Germany, so they kind of make sense here).

Anyway, in the honour of this discussion, I just ordered the following compilation, as I was planning to since I first heard of its conception last summer but then forgot to when it actually came out:



It's a compilation of various German bands criticising the recent boom of nationalism in German pop music. Maybe this will bring us a little bit further back on topic - one of the essays included in the booklet apparently draws a continuity between Wagner and Rammstein. So there. Now someone only has to link this all back to Strauss...

[Good Intentions]

Wagner's Ring Cycle is one of my favourite pieces of music.

To me the difference is that the Ring cycle is the retelling of a myth, and that means a few things, of which the most important is that the narrative will be a showcase and reinforcement of a particular value system - this is what myths are. Mythic value systems are simple and powerful (they are also very similar the world over), and myths are in the glory of heroes. This certainly does no damage to nationalist causes. But I won't avoid them for that reason - that is the worst kind of self-censorship. We really cannot deny ourselves because of the possibility of danger, that would enforce an ethics of mediocrity, of powerless - harmlessness as the prime moral position. To hell with that.

Wagner did Western culture an enormous service through the gesamtkunstwerk, through demanding strong drama to flesh out strong music, and both are strengthened thereby. It is art as a forming force, not as decoration.

Parsifal, however, is different. Rather the values which the mythic figures are reflections of, Parsifal co-opts virtue in service of an individual and an individual culture - it is art done in service of man. The differences between Sigmund and Parsifal are all-important - Sigmund is a part of the world he battles against, the personification of a strain within that value system. Parsifal enters a world, and imparts his values on it (he makes the enchantments disappear with a wave), lauding the superiority of the Aryan over the Semitic. It's bad faith of a spectacular order, and I won't listen to it.

[rockmeamadeus]

GI brings the discussion back OT.

Well, sort of... I am not a fan of the Ring Cycle... there are a few of his operas, though, that I think are just superb.

[Andrew_TSKS]

We really cannot deny ourselves because of the possibility of danger, that would enforce an ethics of mediocrity, of powerless - harmlessness as the prime moral position. To hell with that.

this is a pretty good argument against the swastika ban in germany, i'd say. but that's just me.

[jebreject]

Yeah, I can't say that I agree that banning symbols is a very good way to ensure that something like the rise of Nazi Germany doesn't happen again.  That doesn't squash nationalist, racist, or anti-semetic ideas, it just makes them a tad more difficult to express.  Further, it seems to me that banning a symbol (or a word, or a work of literature, etc.) gives it far more power than it deserves.

[rockmeamadeus]

Yeah, I can't say that I agree that banning symbols is a very good way to ensure that something like the rise of Nazi Germany doesn't happen again.  That doesn't squash nationalist, racist, or anti-semetic ideas, it just makes them a tad more difficult to express.  Further, it seems to me that banning a symbol (or a word, or a work of literature, etc.) gives it far more power than it deserves.

Whoa, Jeb... I agree with you! Like, 100%! That's wierd!

[Charming Tedious]

If Wagner's treatment of myth is emotionally manipulative in service of a certain value system, is it any worse than, say, Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy?

[John]

If Wagner's treatment of myth is emotionally manipulative in service of a certain value system, is it any worse than, say, Peter Jackson's LOTR trilogy?

haha I'd be all for the banning of Lord of the Rings if that's what you're driving at & will even go door-to-door for the cause

[Andrew_TSKS]

now i'm starting to get lost.

[Good Intentions]

Seconded.

Though I hope John means the film. There is a lot that can be salvaged from the book - I think. I haven't read it in a few years, and they've been a very important few years.

EDIT John might very well mean the book. I'm very ambivalent towards it these days - I used to be obsessed about it, but that was when I was even younger.

[Good Intentions]

now i'm starting to get lost.

I wouldn't have called Wagner's bad faith an emotional manipulation, more a case of argument by intimidation - saying something so loud that people will accept it. The emotional aspects are secondary.

Jackson LotR, however, butchers the story and the underlying ethics in service of liberalism, melodramatics and lowest-common-denominator bullshit.