Who actually believes in John Kerry?

[jebreject]

Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!  What'd I say?

[cold before sunrise]

teehee... that was cute.

[cold before sunrise]

alright alright, oh man, apparently those last few posts came across as snippier than intended. sorry guys. it's simply part of my nature to jump to the defense of whatever side of a discussion has least voice (apathy... murder... dubya... whatevs... >there's light in everything<) and banter for the sole sake of challenging commonly held opinions, asking people to explain to themselves why it is that they believe the things they do. infantile 'bush = nazi' arguements are nothing but the reactionary scapegoating of a poorly informed population. the people want to pin their problems on bush? keep him right where he is and channel the energy of the thereafter outraged public to fuel that systematic analysis, loudly spreading critism beyond the figurehead to the grid map, if it's change you're looking for. the real problem with kerry is that he's smart and well-spoken enough to trick the populace into settling back into complacency over the self-satisfaction of feeling like you've "made a difference" and "had your voice heard" by "exercising your right to vote," patting yourself on the back for the next four years as though ticking off a ballot box for once actually constitutes taking action. that's the only decision we're all told we have, to choose one alien slave lord or the other (remember that episode of the simpsons?)  

..so I take it you read Derrick's analysis on the Kerry vs. Bush dilemma above and decided to completely ignore it because you didn't agree with it?  I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here.

derrick and i are analysing the situation in a very similar way, although he's like many others in what i believe is expecting too much out of john kerry. vested interests in serving corporations and the elite are so deeply rooted in the current model of fierce corruption that it doesn't leave much movement from even within the system. besides, weren't bush and kerry both members of the same freaky yale fraternaty? check this out: http://biblebelievers.org.au/bones.htm, a site run by total nutjobs it's rumoured they've even participated in student circle jerks together (apparently kerry ate the cookie!). you do know your so-called hero originally voted in favour of the war on terror and is well known as a proudly pro-isreali uber-elistist, right? that when somebody is telling the truth they usually look to the right, people look to the left when "creating" or spinning stories?

and in case you didn't notice they both have their speeches written for them. it's a total crock, suckas.

Because the U.S. is the only country in the world that has political candidates with pre-written speeches.  Right.

And how do you know what Kerry is exactly going to do if he gets elected anyway?  I don't even think Kerry himself knows!   I don't think Bush knew either when he got elected.  A vote for a candidate is a vote based on faith in the candidate.  No one has ESP yet. (Maybe you do, CBS)  

No doubt, on both sides of the spectrum, most promises are never fulfilled, and I attribute that mainly to the relative lack of voter turnout here in the U.S. to date, and hence the lack of caring on the electee's part to follow through because he or she usually doesn't feel he or she is under as much scrutiny since only this pod of people voted, as opposed to having to answer to the entire country, if that makes sense.

I hope 2004 will improve in that respect.  I really really hope.. even if "the wrong guy" gets elected.

the difference between another country where a candidate will hire a professional to pull the points of their vision together smoothly and in the united states is that politicians are definately less about guiding things as a leader on this continent than being merely a willing participant in an evil scheme ingrained in the network. is ben stein a 'bad' person because he did scripting for nixon? not exactly, i don't think, although he did participate in the process and was one of numerous people required to make a campaign possible. no matter how pure a politicians ideals, he is still bound by the rules and codes of conduct of the game (and is certainly not only playing with himself). what a wanker! based on his reputation and track record, kerry's main goal is bragging rights.

canadian politics are a fucking beautifully ramshackle mess of parties that constantly shift and change with public opinion, in many ways the way they ideally should although our own system is far from ideal. to be honest the bureaucracy is inept and more symbolic of tradition than anything substantial while the population generally polices itself. the country is so far left of the globalist scale that when a capital minded leader like gordon campbell gets into power with ideas on how to strengthen american ties it throws everything maddeningly off-kilter.

...which... begs...the question.  If Campbell threw everything so off kilter, how come he got elected in the first place?  It's not uncommon to run across very right wing Canadians in Vancouver... they often say things like "Why are we such wusses, when we should be out there supporting the U.S. in the war on Iraq?  Canada sucks."... granted, this is usually at the hoochie clubs in downtown on a weekend.  Last time I was there, I saw a couple of leather motorcycle dudes with a BC plate with American flags in the back and Bush stickers!  Granted, that's far less common than it is in the U.S., obviously.. but pro-Republican Canadians exist!   So one person's "throwing everythig off kilter" is another person's "mending things back the way they should".  Just flip NDP with Liberal, and the same is true.

I am intrigued though with BC's tradition of going far left to far right and not having settled on a truly centrist premier in a while.  I don't know the history other than that most of my Vancouver friend can't stand Gordon Campbell, and that they also didn't like the whole high-tech-ferry-boats-that-didn't-work debacle when the NDP was last in power in BC.

dude, canadians flip-flop. something's not working so we change our minds and try something totally different and then decide we liked the other way better, except different this time, and so on and so forth. similiar to fiddling with the knob on the radio, trying to find a station you like, settling on one for a while before getting bored and switching it up again. you're totally right you'll find a wide range of opinions across the political spectrum here up north since it seems as though everybody has a radically different personal outlook on the world at large. it's not a two tiered system here so canadians have very colourful ideas as opposed to the black and white world of democrats and republicans. that's not to say we don't run into dum-dum polarized canadians either though.

we should seriously be working towards becoming ever more communistic and self-contained than we already are, ideally with the united states on board to become a single entity. derrick, our country is north america's number one source of oil, rich in lumber, grain fields (the only reason we sell to the usa is because they need the wheat and corn - taber corn rocks - so hard they'll pay 10% more than the next highest bidding nation), fisheries, amongst the finest beef in the world (second only to argentina. fuck off, it was one cow and originally american to begin with.), artisan cheeses, orchards, breweries, vineyards, chocolatiers, certified organic micro farms, wild game, blood-free diamonds, 90% of the world's clean drinking water (the only substance more valuable than oil), and the second largest land mass on earth.

You forgot printing of American independent label music packaging!  (Didn't Minneapolis's Arcwelder actually call one of their albums Jacket Made In Canada back in 1990 or so?)

it makes me sad on the occasions when the only thing people from here have to say that's positive about being canadian is that "it's not american" when we've got so much more to feel good about. because not only does saying this scream inferiority complex but also that we don't have faith in our government to make us proud. not that this isn't a wise road to take... they've approved bids for canada to become a site for america to dump it's toxic waste and allowed our resources to be both exploited and taken for granted. this is not acceptable.

american universities encourage canadian applicants because we raise their overall gpa, following a more british line of education than american in general.

Can I see the studies on this?  links?

i've read related stories numerous times over the past few years in articles here and there, but it only took google half a second to find this charming piece:

http://link to racist website deleted, please do not link to this or comparable "nationalist" site k thx bye

jews in america and europe are amongst the most intelligent individuals in the world, with a high number of geniuses who help maintain an acceptable mean iq for their respective countries. being that fertile minds can make a comfortable living doing research for american universities you have the brightest canadians relocating south. like how actors conglomerate around los angeles and grunge musicians seem to prefer the seattle area.  

and this is all without a modicum of any sense of superiority as a culture, as most canadians are about as homegrown as they come. true north strong and free. as far as humanitarianism goes alberta kinda fucked up with the whole sterilizing-those-tested-with-lower-iq-than-satisfactory business a few years ago but we're not too shabby in general. the unsound being tended to at public expense? that's our biggest weakness as a country: caring too much about our neighbours. we'd probably we better off siding with china but if the states wants to protect us from occupation we should only be happy enough to shut down the borders from immigration and have convinced the white house to dissolve corporate rule.

I don't know where to start here, regarding the claim of "without a modicum of any sense of superiority" and then what followed.  

we don't have the reputation of being easy-going hosers for nothing. like how i enjoy popping percocet and making long-winded rants online because it's mildly entertaining, imho. c'mon, it's funnier because i'm a girl, don't you think?

i miss vancouver, especially since the new safe injection sites make it less likely i'll run into a heroin junkie convulsing on the sidewalk in broad daylight on the lower eastside with a needle sticking out of his arm.

Well, I've seen that happen in the past year twice, so it hasn't completely gotten better, although I support the idea of the program no doubt, and it has helped, surely.

I'm more worried about the pending 2010 Olympics and hoping the city government doesn't do anything Gulianistic and just merely sweep those people away somewhere.  (I'm also optimistic that the 2010 games might help in developing things positively in some areas of Vancouver, too.)

stepping out of the ferry terminal on my first trip to vancity as a new resident to the pacific northwest i was greeted by the crunch of stepping on a used syringe. being accepting and supportive of a wide range of lifestyles has it's disadvantages, sure. at the same time it doesn't make sense to punish victims of addiction by putting them behind bars for suffering from the affliction of drug use. smoking pot shouldn't make you a criminal, that's just silly.

of course it's also perfectly ridiculous for a pretty young woman to be talking about politics. this should be chuckled about and brushed off as pink cotton candy-scented fluff, the lunacy of the lunar female! har dee har har har...

[Andrew_TSKS]

cold before sunrise--i have two things to say.

1) your version of canada becoming more communistic also includes a lot of nationalistic isolationism, and in this way actually becomes far more like mussolini's original vision for fascism. weird but true.

2) kerry did NOT actually "vote for the war on terror". first of all, you're actually thinking of the iraq war, and second of all, the idea that kerry was in favor of the war is a bush partyline oversimplification that turns out not to be true upon further investigation. the vote was actually just to do SOMETHING about the situation in iraq, and it was widely assumed that it would be years and only as a last resort that iraq would ever be challenged militarily. bush basically took congress's vote as carte blanche to immediately begin a war with iraq, which it wasn't.

pretty much everything else you're saying is too out-there for me to even have a response for, though i'm truly impressed with mackro's responses to it.

oh, except for one thing: all this pandering to instinctive notions of sexism confuses me. are you trying to accuse us of being sexist? no one has any problem with the fact that you're a girl who has these opinions and engages in these debates. that's fine with us. so what's your point?

[mackro]

derrick and i are analysing the situation in a very similar way, although he's like many others in what i believe is expecting too much out of john kerry. vested interests in serving corporations and the elite are so deeply rooted in the current model of fierce corruption that it doesn't leave much movement from even within the system.

I don't think Derrick at all said what you claimed. (I'll go back and re-read it again though, since i can't backtrack to a previous page on the forums here while replying at the same time.)  I believe both he and I agree with you here.  I think his point was:  if Kerry is elected, there's a greater chance of us being able to confront the "U.S. Empire" dilemma and possibly get some points across -- like during the Clinton years with WTO and what not -- as opposed to being distracted by scrambling to find somebody that is far from perfect but at least isn't as psycho and insane as Bush to run the country in the meantime.

besides, weren't bush and kerry both members of the same freaky yale fraternaty? check this out: [link to biblebelievers.org.au/bones.htm deleted: check its front page for why, if you can stomach super-tinfoil-helmet anti-semitism] it's rumoured they've even participated in student circle jerks together (apparently kerry ate the cookie!).

Thanks. I'm sure rumors about presidential candidates eating semen off sweet treats decades ago adds a lot of your credence to your argument here.

you do know your so-called hero originally voted in favour of the war on terror and is well known as a proudly pro-isreali uber-elistist, right? that when somebody is telling the truth they usually look to the right, people look to the left when "creating" or spinning stories?

Well, Andrew said most of what I was going to say.   As far as supporting the war on Iraq... hell, even I supported the war in Iraq before we invaded, because I honestly thought there might have a solid reason to do it.  I really was fighting my greater instinct, but if the administration was right, and there were nefarious plots to aid world terrorists in Iraq, I obviously wanted to have that stopped -- and I think it would have been in the world's best interest to do it.  I was wondering why the U.N. was fighting Bush on this issue, and, well... now I know why.  Those Iraq threats turned out to have never been there in the first place, and I feel completely betrayed and embarrassed by the Bush administration after the fact, and continue to be more shocked and betrayed as more stories of incompetency between U.S. Intelligence and Bush's administration come to light... (especially the Pat Robertson quote.. haha)...  I never liked Bush before 9/11 and before the Iraq war.  Now I despise and loathe him and his ilk, because of that betrayal.

So, I think "flip-flopping" on the issue of the Iraq War (like Kerry did) is a sane and justified move, now that we know what we know.  That fact that the entire spin of Bush's campaign is to use "flip-flopping" as a weakness and attack on Kerry is extremely retarded, insulting, and hypocritical.  But I digress...

the difference between another country where a candidate will hire a professional to pull the points of their vision together smoothly and in the united states is that politicians are definately less about guiding things as a leader on this continent than being merely a willing participant in an evil scheme ingrained in the network. is ben stein a 'bad' person because he did scripting for nixon? not exactly, i don't think, although he did participate in the process and was one of numerous people required to make a campaign possible. no matter how pure a politicians ideals, he is still bound by the rules and codes of conduct of the game (and is certainly not only playing with himself). what a wanker! based on his reputation and track record, kerry's main goal is bragging rights.

Oh, come off it.  Every country has a "game" the politicians in that country have to play.  Sometimes that game is that disingenuousness you attribute to the U.S., with which I agree.  Canada has a "game" too.  It's not the same exact "game" as the U.S.'s, but it ain't anything that different.. sorry.  Sometimes the game is just a lot of people getting murdered every day.  (Ask anyone who's lived in Africa.)  Although, the idea that countries have Fight Club style codas is really funny to me, as far as comedy skit ideas go.

dude, canadians flip-flop. something's not working so we change our minds and try something totally different and then decide we liked the other way better, except different this time, and so on and so forth. similiar to fiddling with the knob on the radio, trying to find a station you like, settling on one for a while before getting bored and switching it up again. you're totally right you'll find a wide range of opinions across the political spectrum here up north since it seems as though everybody has a radically different personal outlook on the world at large. it's not a two tiered system here so canadians have very colourful ideas as opposed to the black and white world of democrats and republicans. that's not to say we don't run into dum-dum polarized canadians either though.

I do agree that Canadian politics, as far as the rise and fall of parties, and creation of new ones, is far more interesting than the frustrating status quo of "Democrat vs. Republican" in the U.S. that has lasted waaaay too long, over half a century now.  (Never mind that the meanings of both parties have drastically changed over time, but that doesn't matter.. "BLEEDING HEARTS" vs. "HOMOPHOBES" "FOREVER!")  And while the palette of parties can be a good thing, it can be scary too.  I remember talking with friends in Vancouver frightened of the sudden ascent of the Reform Party.  In retrospect, I guess they never were really a threat, but still... damn, to have that arise in the scope of a few years sometimes makes boring status quo seem like a relief.  (I stress "sometimes")

(And don't forget that France had a similar scare not even two years ago, with extreme Right Wing Le Pen winning some sort of primary there for Prime Minister.  Of course, when people woke up, Le Pen got P3wn3d thankfully.. but anyway....)

it makes me sad on the occasions when the only thing people from here have to say that's positive about being canadian is that "it's not american" when we've got so much more to feel good about. because not only does saying this scream inferiority complex but also that we don't have faith in our government to make us proud. not that this isn't a wise road to take... they've approved bids for canada to become a site for america to dump it's toxic waste and allowed our resources to be both exploited and taken for granted. this is not acceptable.

Agreed.

i've read related stories numerous times over the past few years in articles here and there, but it only took google half a second to find this charming piece:

[url deleted, please do not link to "nationalist" websites from these forums]

jews in america and europe are amongst the most intelligent individuals in the world, with a high number of geniuses who help maintain an acceptable mean iq for their respective countries. being that fertile minds can make a comfortable living doing research for american universities you have the brightest canadians relocating south. like how actors conglomerate around los angeles and grunge musicians seem to prefer the seattle area.

WOW!   OK... hold up..  I don't know where to start here.  That article you link contains the caption "Scientific data show that the races differ in intelligence,Aeidogma holds otherwise."... because, obviously, of course dogma is immediately inferior to science!   I won't even get into the whole premise of that article trying to disprove (and I stress "trying") that blacks are equally as "intelligent" as whites or other races... because of course, there's only one definition of "intelligence".  I thought you were posting that in hopes that you were going to rip it apart, but you used it as evidence!  Someone get my jaw off the floor, please.  Let's just say you didn't post that, K?

Trust me, don't get me started on the "grunge musicians seem to prefer the seattle area" comment, not to mention bragging that "the brightest canadians move south".  Bragging about bright people moving away from your country sounds a little contradictory, doesn't it?

...

Aside from agreeing with:

stepping out of the ferry terminal on my first trip to vancity as a new resident to the pacific northwest i was greeted by the crunch of stepping on a used syringe. being accepting and supportive of a wide range of lifestyles has it's disadvantages, sure. at the same time it doesn't make sense to punish victims of addiction by putting them behind bars for suffering from the affliction of drug use. smoking pot shouldn't make you a criminal, that's just silly.

The rest of your last response has you going into this weird deluded argument that you are being challenged on this topic only because "you're a 'weird' girl with opinions", implying that arguing with you is sexist, if I'm hearing you right -- never mind that I have never mentioned your sex nor questioned your age nor questioned your chemical state of mind once this entire topic (you brought the percocets up, not me), in the context of the validity of your arguments, if at all.  If that's not what you meant, please elaborate, because otherwise, I have zero idea what you're talking about.  Never mind that I've actually agreed with your points to date about 30% of the time.

And no... I have no idea how old you are or whether you're truly male or female, and you don't have to tell me, and I don't have to care either way.  That's why I online debate.  No biasing factors like body language, voice, volume, looks, sex, or tone of voice come into play!  (it can also be a handicap, but again, I digress.)

[Andrew_TSKS]

oh my lord... upon reading mackro's response i finally followed that link. american renaissance is a white supremacist newspaper. do we have a bonafide racist posting on here? is that what's been going on this whole time?

[boganlux]

oh my lord... upon reading mackro's response i finally followed that link. american renaissance is a white supremacist newspaper. do we have a bonafide racist posting on here? is that what's been going on this whole time?

I think my orginal impression of Cold Before Sunset applies:

"If you make sense, you're a fag!"

[cold before sunrise]

that doesn't make any sense. kind of like how americans take their election so seriously. is there anybody here who isn't familiar with the story of the emporer's new clothes? as in the election was so obviously a transparent sham that it's baffling to the world to watch usa citizens sit back and refuse to acknowledge that the system is a farce.

[SPACERACE]

that doesn't make any sense. kind of like how americans take their election so seriously. is there anybody here who isn't familiar with the story of the emporer's new clothes? as in the election was so obviously a transparent sham that it's baffling to the world to watch usa citizens sit back and refuse to acknowledge that the system is a farce.

Oh give it a goddamn rest.

It's a stupid system, for sure, but you know what, he won. GTFOI. More people voted for him.

And your other arguments here (a link to AmRen? Are you fucking with us?) completely eliminate what credibility you'd have.

[cold before sunrise]

as if it makes a difference. you're right, he did win, but that's not what i was talking about. after fahrenheit 9/11 there were humungus numbers of people finally thinking about serious political issues that have been no secret for some time now, which was super, except that thanks to micheal moore pegging the president as a bad guy it misled the public - sorry, no, the student activists - into believing he was the root of the problem. the fact is that the president does very little in the way of work at all, unless you count the occasional photo opportunity, and is responsible for literally nothing except getting the golf club bar waiters excited. the decision makers don't answer to your votes and isreal was around well before w.

and there's nothing wrong with racial differences, because we're not all the same! in my opinion the homogenization of a "one world, one people" vision is way more gross than cultural pride. seeing african pygmies in tribal paint watching baywatch in an electronics store was horrifying, it's enough to make any decent human being want to pick them up and carry them back to the jungle where they belong. unless you're one of those people who wants to see us all one big consumer family, a single raceless body of people who do nothing but take, you've got to agree that tribalism is in everyone's best interest.

sure i fuck with people, why not? there's love in this.

[SPACERACE]

as if it makes a difference. you're right, he did win, but that's not what i was talking about. after fahrenheit 9/11 there were humungus numbers people finally thinking about serious political issues that have been no secret for some time now, which was super, except that thanks to micheal moore pegging the president as a bad guy it misled the public - sorry, no, the student activists - into believing he was the root of the problem. the fact is that the president does very little in the way of work at all, unless you count the occasional photo opportunity, and is responsible for literally nothing except getting the golf club bar waiters excited. the decision makers don't answer to your votes and isreal was around well before w.

and there's nothing wrong with racial differences, because we're not all the same! in my opinion the homogenization of a "one world, one people" vision is way more gross than cultural pride. seeing african pygmies in tribal paint watching baywatch in an electronics store was horrifying, it's enough to make any decent human being want to pick them up and carry them back to the jungle where they belong. unless you're one of those people who wants to see us all one big consumer family, a single raceless body of people who do nothing but take, you've got to agree that tribalism is in everyone's best interest.

You're just not getting it.

1. The Bush-as-puppet theory: it's kind of dumb. The U.S. government, consider their actions as sinister as you wish, are not like at. At least that's my take, but I'm confident. I don't believe that there is some super-duper secret shadow government a la Metal Gear Solid 2, I think that Bush is the president, he makes the decisions a normal president would make, and he has advisors, that advise him. He's not just there to look good and smile, and the fact that he comes across as a total fucking buffoon is support for that, I'd say. He was elected on extremely shaky terms the first time, and he did things that some people liked (whatever), and they re-elected him. It's pretty simple. Yes, the government keeps secrets. But so what. They always have. They always will. Deal.

2. Racial Differences: Racial differences are one thing, but your whole rant reeks of thoughtlessness. First, the article you linked to was hardly about "racial differences," it just said that black people are dumb, basically. Did you read it before you posted it? Did you have any idea what American Renaissance is about? I mean, it wouldn't shock me at this point if you were in fact an open racist.
And no one's saying that we should bring people out of their cultures, into our Mickey D's, Wal-Mart, and Quik-e Lube society, and we're not trying to homogenize anything. I don't know where you read that, and if you could provide a quote or something tangible, it would be appreciated. Race is responsible for some cultural differences. To deny that would be a pretty blind statement. But I honestly don't think there is an intrinsic difference between people of different races, in terms of capability or capacity.

[cold before sunrise]

okay, 1) fair enough, although you're over simplifying the complex network of interests and influences that reside over the decision making process. did you read clinton's book? i didn't, but while promoting his autobiography he said some interesting things about how the process works, something along the lines of how even if you never lied throughout the election campaign and your vision remains strong while in that position of perceived authority, that when all the factors weigh in you're hardly left with room to manoeuver. the difference is that bush let the boat steer itself into the rocks, because you're right that he made some poor judgement if any at all. based on shady business deals and secrets kept from the public, who picks up the tab for everything. but this is nothing new.

and, 2) so let's use slavery as an example. in addition to slaves from africa, there were scottish, irish, and english slaves as well - most of our ancestors - who were worth significantly less than the black ones because they were less hardy for field work, not being accustomed to the sun. this is an undeniable genetic difference! blacks are also stronger and faster overall, which is why they average more of the best athletes. and asians are smarter than whites. what's the problem? ooh... judging people is wrong. so don't judge me then, fool.

am i way off-base with everything i've said?! sorry if the ideas i presented offended anyone. <going to sit back under my bridge>

[dieblucasdie]

Wow.

[John]

Cold Before Sunrise: This is to serve notice that your opinions on race, such as they are, are unwelcome in these forums.  Any futher expressing of racist opinions, what to speak of links to pseudo-scientific stuff hosted on AmRen or comparable sites, will be deleted by me without comment.

People who keep responding to CBS's obvious trolling efforts: your responses will also be deleted. The Constitution guarantees your right to free speech in the U.S.; these forums, however, aren't a democracy. They're a benign dictatorship. Feeding trolls is pointless. This is my last comment on this subject.

[R2theT]

So who do you think is gonna win the election? ^_^

[SPACERACE]

So who do you think is gonna win the election? ^_^

Dean.